When is it fair for classes to share?
Recently an interesting thing happened in the world of game design. To non-WoW players, it may seem like a minor detail, but it really shows an insight into the way that Blizzard designs their games.Rogues have, of course, been stealthy for a long time, and when word first dropped that hunters might be getting Camouflage in Wrath of the Lich King, we were pretty excited that some element of stealth might be added to our class too. Blizzard went back and forth on this ability, first putting it in, then taking it out, then putting it in again, and finally taking it out again. In the end they decided that it was just too similar to the rogue ability, and they didn't want to blend the classes together too much. This was about the same time that they gave rogues a new ability, called Tricks of the Trade, which looks a lot like the hunter's ability, Misdirection.
To one player who asked what was up with this unfairness, Ghostcrawler spoke up and explained some of their design philosophy. She started by saying that they have 10 classes now, and they have to add more in every expansion. The "lazy-designer" way to handle this kind of situation is just to find an ability that works for one class and just give it to another. This would end up leaving the classes without enough to distinguish them all individually, and it's something they wanted to avoid.
So why was Misdirection an okay ability to share, while Stealth was not?...
Was it because Stealth is already shared by druids? Or because it is such a core element of the rogue and druid experience, something they get from very early in their carreers, while Misdirection was just added on in the latest expansion? Was it because the purposes to which these two abilities would be used by these two classes was different enough that it wouldn't make them to similar? Or was it because of actual threat-per-second calculations laid out on spreadsheets and carefully analyzed by the development team? No. In the end, Ghostcrawler says, "deciding what kind of abilities they have is more of a gut thing, and logic isn't necessarily going to apply the same way." The design of your class is a gut thing -- like music, and painting.
It got me thinking. So who's the judge? Does Blizzard get away with all their unfair class design choices just because their gut says something our guts don't say?
The answer, my friends, is yes. So much of what we see in the game is that way because the developers just felt like it was the best way things could be. They didn't get it right all the time, as Ghostcrawler will readily admit, but overall it looks like they didn't do too bad, considering, you know... 10 million players and counting. It strikes some kind of chord in people as a meaningful activity. We may not agree with their class design choices from our own rational perspectives, but WoW really is a work of art whose value mainly rests in what it means to each individual. Logic isn't the only (or even the most important) factor in cases like this, and the balance of abilities they're trying to reach is essentially aesthetic.
Filed under: Druid, Hunter, Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Classes, Wrath of the Lich King, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
shinken Oct 7th 2008 7:06PM
Ok stealth is a core ability of rogues, they need it to pull off abilities and survive in pvp. Misdirection is simply a nice ability hunters have.
A pet class should never get stealth like a rogue.
PimpyMicPimp Oct 7th 2008 7:18PM
But nearly every class has pets now.
rick gregory Oct 7th 2008 7:24PM
Exactly. Your little whine totally misses the point that stealth is a class defining ability of rogues while MD is a nice to have tool in the hunter's kit.
I'm certainly no Blizz fanboy, but connect the brain before you type next time.
Cambro Oct 7th 2008 8:34PM
@shinken
Night Elves can shadowmeld (form of stealth), so stealth being a rogue-only thing isn't true. Mages have invisibility and anyone can consume an invisibility potion, so stealth isn't exclusive to rogues (although done best by them by far). One of my 70s is a rogue, and I think it's weird for a rogue to have some kind of Misdirect ability...other than Distract. If this addition is because of some PvE need, I suggest Blizzard nerf the cooldown on the hunter misdirect. Of course I also think warrior Taunt should work on other players and paladin Turn Undead should work on Forsaken players...and Spell Reflect should actually work...*sigh* got myself started...
@PimpyMicPimp
I had to think on this one. Counting classes only and not professions (thinking engineer combat pets):
Pets:
Priest (shadowfiend)
Hunter (animals)
Warlock (summoned pets)
Mage (water elemental)
Shaman (fire elemental, water elemental)
No pets:
Druid
Warrior
Paladin
Rogue
Fair to say majority, but not most, classes have pets of some kind they can use.
Sathelan Oct 7th 2008 8:52PM
@Cambro
Druid and Rogue stealth are vastly different from Nightelf or Mage stealth in that they are broken when a nightelf moves or it only lasts a certain amount of time with mages. Also, turn undead used to work on forsaken, they were also immune to polymorph (and fear I believe) seeing as how they are undead. Seems a bit unbalanced if they put it back that way :D
And while the list of classes with pets is valid, we should clarify that although all of toughs classes can use pets, only Hunters and warlocks pets are permanent.
Shadowfiend's dps is nowhere near a hunter or Lock pet's and it only lasts for 15 seconds.
Shaman and mages pets, while powerful are also on timers: Water elemental 45 secs and Shaman elementals 2 min (Shaman also have no control of the elementals and they are on a 30 min cooldown). So while we all may have a pet we will never use any of them in the same way a hunter uses theirs.
Zep Oct 7th 2008 8:54PM
Actually...
Hunter - Pet (beast)
Warlock - Pet (demon)
Shaman - Pet (elemental totem)
Druid - Pet (treants, w/ new pet bar now)
Priest - Pet (shadowfiend)
Mage - Pet (water elemental)
Death Knight - Pet (ghoul)
Paladin - no pet
Rogue - no pet
Warrior - no pet
Dan Oct 7th 2008 8:57PM
To point out just one of the ways in you've been irrational, let's discuss the effects of making Forsaken players "undead" for the purposes of CC skills.
Turn Undead works
Shackle Undead also works
No Sap
No Polymorph
No Fear
No Seduce
These are just off of the top of my head, I'm undoubtedly forgetting 5000000000 additional humanoid-only abilities.
Dan Oct 7th 2008 9:00PM
Sorry, my comment was @Cambra and the point is, there's many effects you're not thinking of when talking about changing things. Making Forsaken "Undead" would NOT make them easier to CC
Roxton Oct 8th 2008 3:27AM
@Cambro:
Oh for goodness sake, another remtard who doesn't know the difference between Invisibility and Stealth. To sum it up for the ignorant: In invisibility you can't see enemy targets, in stealth you can. Invisibility is purely an escape mechanism or for minor content bypassing. It's a lot worse than stealth, not least because it's got a limited duration. Oh, and you can get AoEd out of it without seeing the AoEer. (Not complaining about Invis, I love it, just showing the differences). So actually stealth is limited to Rogues, Druids and to a lesser extent Nelfs, despite the fact that if they move it breaks.
Also, on your pet list (which is incomplete) - all those except for hunter and warlock either have to be picked up as talents or have massive cooldowns. The ability to occasionally summon a pet does not make a class a "pet class", the same way that Shadowmeld does not make all Nelfs rogues.
Zarfay Oct 8th 2008 3:46AM
@ Cambro
shaman have fire and earth elementals not water
Nick S Oct 7th 2008 7:12PM
The coincidence of the Camouflage and "Rogue MD" changes was a little strange. Surely someone at Blizzard said to herself, "Maybe we should spread these two changes out in time just a little bit."
As it is, there's a distinct feeling among the Hunter community that Rogues are being given Hunter abilities. Whether that's the case, I'm not sure, and frankly having played the beta a bit I can't see Rogues having Misdirect as any kind of a deal-breaker, but it does sting a little. Some of us were pretty excited about Camoflague, even if it did turn out to be (as it frankly should) a much weaker form of stealth than that enjoyed by Rogues.
Oh well. There are still quite a few Hunter changes left to be made (trapping is still a part of the max DPS rotation /facepalm.) I just hope we don't end up in a place where our only really great move is no longer useful.
Radiophonic Oct 7th 2008 7:15PM
I'm going to be honest here and say that Hunters have become a real force to reckon with anyway with all of the new pet stuns, snares, etc. and lets not forget the new disengage that's making mele upset in BG's everywhere. Stealth? I can live without it for the most part.
Heilig Oct 7th 2008 7:19PM
Way to miss the point of the Hunter complaints.
It's not about stealth, it's about the double standard that's being applied at random. They tell us that we can't have other classes' skills because "it would make the classes feel too similar" and then go and give away our unique skills to other classes.
R. Sue Oct 7th 2008 7:25PM
@Heilig:
This is true, and it's a valid feeling. However, we're also talking about a "bonus ability" for hunters, that's just a pleasant part of their repertoire, versus stealth, which is pretty much the point of a rogue's existence.
If they'd given rogues the ability to train pets, say, then I could understand the outrage. But with feral druids already having most of a rogue's functionality, giving hunters a huge chunk of it too would have been a much bigger slap in the face than someone else having misdirect is to us hunters.
Also notable is the fact that stealth is usable in both PvP and PvE circumstances, whereas misdirection is pretty much PvE only -- and for a rogue who doesn't have a pet to misdirect to, pretty much dungeon/raid only.
dpak Oct 9th 2008 12:37AM
As a player who has: a hunter, a rogue, a tank, a mage, a shadow priest, a druid and a shaman (I dont play my lock or pally enough to count them).
and as a player who is a raid leader I say:
it makes sense to me.
Misdirection is not a core or class defining skill....that and there are some tactical differences of the new rogue ability (raid leaders think of this), and I welcome it.
My first was my hunter, and they have plenty of tricks, and have new ones. I think this was a good move.
some perspective might help those who do not see it as such.
Balius Oct 7th 2008 8:39PM
It seems like the easy solution here is to take away Hunter misdirects. Hunters are always saying they don't use them very often, rogues need something to add to a group besides single target DPS. Clearly, in order to keep the two unique, Hunters will just have to lose misdirect.
Alternately, since the two do similar things in very different situations, it could just as easily be seen as a wholly different skill. Unless there are a lot more single target pulls, no rogue is going to be waddling out to the group of enemies and aggroing them all in order to send one at the tank. It isn't a pulling ability, it's a way to keep under the aggro bar, help the whole group do the same, and maybe even help the tank do a little bit of extra damage.
Misdirect isn't a class defining skill, it's just a skill. Nobody takes up the Hunter class because misdirecting gives the hunter unique abilities. It's not even a skill Hunters seem to use much, in my experience with them in PuGs.
Hunters can start complaining when trapping is given to paladin for CC, or a variety of ranged attacks becomes a warrior staple, or a strong personalized pet becomes a shaman trait. Those are the things that define hunters, like totems define shaman and stealth defines rogues. Those CORE abilities, those things that make a class different, should never be traded around by even the laziest developer.
In my opinion, it isn't dealing from the bottom of the deck. A class defining ability is being preserved, a skill similar to something another class has but rarely uses is being added.
jbodar Oct 7th 2008 9:08PM
@ R Sue
Tricks also grants a 15% dmg buff to the target. Why would Rogues NOT use that in PVP?
Tushar Bharadia Oct 7th 2008 9:11PM
I've just started running Kara with my new guild and we have our hunters (one of whom is the raid leader) MD to myself or the other tank on as many pulls as possible.
Misdirect is a highly useful skill, but PUGgies tend not to use it because, well, they're PUGgies.
As far as having a rogue using Tricks of the trade, though, why not have them walk into a tough-to-pull group, use ToT on a mob, then Vanish? Sounds like a sneaky enough move to me and it can separate one mob from a pack, since the rest of the pull won't have aggro.
J Oct 8th 2008 12:06AM
Don't know about your hunters, but with my 70, I use MD nearly every single time its CD is up. Either so I can blow ALL my top dps abilities, or to snag runners trying to smash the cloth.
Hunters that *don't* use MD at every opportunity are wasting the skill.
onetrueping Oct 8th 2008 6:23AM
Tushar:
This would not separate a mob from a pack. By being near the pack, the rogue generates a minuscule amount of aggro on the entire pack. As a longtime rogue, I can readily say that this aggro will INSTANTLY transfer to the party when the rogue vanishes. This can quite often lead to a wipe, or at the least an intense fight. It's one of the main reasons why most rogues have Pick Pocket macro'd to be simultaneously cast with their stealthed openers, like Cheap Shot or Ambush: running around stealthed to pick pockets is exceptionally dangerous, because a resisted attempt leads to a loss of stealth, aggro from the mob and any others in range, and either a dead rogue and desperate party, or a Vanished rogue and a desperate party.