Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsGhostcrawler talks about Paladin nerfs
by Zach Yonzon 
Oct 27th 2008 at 1:30AM
In the Beta forums, which players seem to be unable to post on at the moment, Ghostcrawler outlined the nerfs and explained the reasoning behind each one. Over at the live forums, he answered some questions fielded by players from several upset posts. It's a very illuminating read, and here are some of the interesting points:
- On Retribution burstiness as part of design - "Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond."
- On Paladins running out of mana - "we might as well take the mana bar off the UI because it was just irrelevant to hitting any buttons."
- On why they said Retribution was fine (even during BlizzCon, where the now-famous joke quote was uttered) - "Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun."
- On other classes now laughing (again) at Retribution - "Well, they're jerks."
The real good news, however, is that Blizzard is actively tuning the class instead of ignoring it. This gives me hope for better balance, particularly when Ghostcrawler talks about how the nerfs to Seals damage affects the other two specs, as well. He says that they realize that Holy and Protection are affected by the nerfs, too, "and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation".
Hopefully this means that talents deep in both trees will be reworked or buffed to compensate for the massive 20% damage nerf. I'm hoping even more that Blizzard addresses other key issues of the Retribution spec, such as mobility and the inability to overcome healing now that burst potential has been, ahem, nerfed to the ground. With Blizzard's close focus on PvP -- and a large reason for the nerfs come from PvP numbers -- I hope these perennial issues will be fixed, too. Head over to the forums for more from Ghostcrawler.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 6 of 10)
kamodius Oct 27th 2008 3:22PM
You get an epic fail for that statement. This is a LIVE ONLINE GAME. There is no "done". It's a constant work in progress.
obarthelemy Nov 1st 2008 1:55AM
Mmm, if you can't make a difference between adding content /changing mechanics, and shipping unbalanced, bugged implementations, you're not fit to ward "epic fails", except your own.
Ben Oct 27th 2008 7:10AM
Bout damm time. It's kind of lame being stunned then being dead without a chance to fight back hell even against rogues I get a chance to drop a trap.
grizzle Oct 27th 2008 7:11AM
On Retribution burstiness as part of design - "Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond."
For a minute i thought he was referring to rouge stunlocks mistakenly.
A Prot Pally Oct 27th 2008 7:11AM
I agree that 20% is a bit much, but leave the Prot and Holy trees alone. If you want to DPS, roll a hunter (like I did). If you want to be useful to the raid and get invites left and right, be a prot pally.
If blizz wants to screw the ret tree like they've done for ages, that's fine...but don't punish the tanks and healers because they can't figure out how to tune a class after a major patch...that's not fair.
twh Oct 27th 2008 10:48AM
Too late. Blizzard caved into the whiners and as a result, the whole class is suffering.
doughar Oct 27th 2008 7:11AM
This nerf reminds me of the rage normalization one that hit warriors before BC came out. They said that it wouldn't affect tanking warriors at all, when if fact it gimped them all to hell and back. They fixed it rather quickly though, so have hope pallys.
twh Oct 27th 2008 10:50AM
Thanks, I needed the laugh. The only thing they do with this class is gut it whenever it shows promise of being competitive.
Timelimit Oct 27th 2008 7:12AM
boomkins OP?
ok, we're doing more damage than we used to, but OP?
One Vs. One we stand a decent chance, even against rogues, but agaisnt pallys? I'm far from being a brilliant balance druid, im a casual player using a combination of s1/s2 gear and other purples, but i've seen Pallys, just smash through groups of various classes.
I think the 20% may be a bit much, but as many other posters have said, it'll be temporary. Bliz will hopefully see that they've overdone the nerf and work from there to bring your dps back in line with other classes. We are all now hopefully being balanced for when we reach lvl 80 so i'm sure we're going to see many changes over the next couple of months to all classes, so don't worry im sure every class will be seeing nerfs or improvements soon.
deathsteed Oct 27th 2008 7:12AM
I feel bad for ret pallys right now. I was a feral druid when 2.0 hit, and bears were 4 legged furry tractors of DEATH.
Then, whamo, nerfbat hit hard, and now bears are not for PVP.
I'm sorry, but ret was CLEARLY OP. Not only did they have the incredible burst damage, but also the bubbles, the heals, the plate and possibly shield (although that's not a typical ret item) all giving them incredible survivability. Lets not forget the cleansing, removing poisons, diseases, and magic effects. Pallys are survivors. They're like Rocky. They may use their face to block most of your punches, but well played, there is nothing in the game harder to kill.
And as for ignoring pallys in PVP? I know I've ignored PLENTY of pallys in PVP. That wasn't because I didn't see them as a threat, but because I knew they'd bubble, heal, and be generally unkillable while their buddies smashed my team's face. It's better to kill the more squishy guys, then take the pally down when his bursty or high DPS teammates are dead.
And as for the people who are crying, remember this. Bilz does not want you to be awful. They want you to be balanced with the other classes. The way ret was in PVP, you were NOT balanced. Not even a little. You were white swirly tanks of death.
twh Oct 27th 2008 10:52AM
Yet, the fact remains, now that we have neither burst, nor damage, nor the tools to put pressure on our enemies, it'll be no different than before because piss ants like yourself couldn't stomach the fact that the class and spec you laughed at since the game began is giving you a much needed cold metal enema.
deathsteed Oct 27th 2008 11:13AM
TWH, if you read my post (which is obvious you didn't really do) you would realize that what I was saying was that pallys are survivors. Pallys are NOT rogues. They're not Mages. They're hybrids. They survive, with bubbles, heals, plate, cleanse, etc. You don't have to do crazy burst damage to win a fight, you need to use the tools you are given.
I believe "pissants" was the word you were looking for, meaning an insignificant person. These insignificant people who are getting stunlocked and killed by pallys before they have a chance to respond at all, see the need for balance. You, on the other had, just want to press your 3 "i win" buttons and smoke anyone out there. Guess what, that's not the name of your game. Your game is to survive, to support your team, and to deal out damage on par with other classes. Be it high burst or steady damage, I don't care. But with the incredibly high survivability of pallys, it doesn't make sense that they can burst just about anyone into the ground, player after player, with no mana worries, then when they get some damage in them, just bubble and heal.
As someone with a druid, mage, rogue and shaman, I cover all the aspects of the game. (Tank, Range DPS, Melee DPS and Heals) I can say that my mage (frost) has the best chance of taking down a pally, but only if I can successfully kite them, which is hard considering that they can cleanse the FB debuff off, and with a minimum 2.5 second cast time (before haste, IV, etc) it's very hard to do. And then, once that pally is within range, it's repentance, burst, HoJ, burst, squish. My rogue, forget it. Trinket off the first stun, then repeat the above combo. Just as squishy as the mage. My shaman healer? Just get in range to stun me and burst me down hard, can't heal through it. I don't even bother with my druid in PVP because once the bears were nerfed, feral was never really a great PVP spec. With the new talents, being a tank doesn't really give me the PVP abilities to do anything as kitty.
So, I tried to say it nice before, but QQ more. Pallys were OP, and I hope they're being brought inline. If they get a little extra nerf, I'm sure bliz will adjust in their favor as those stats come out. Just remember, when you hand out too many "cold metal enema[s]", then bliz will notice and give you one of your own.
Use the tools you have. Use your skills, not just your OPness.
Thalinna Nov 5th 2008 1:52PM
(Im not flaming you rofl so dont flame me back.)
Note to all pallys reading this. I know for a fact that alot of you are muuuuch better than me so dont go tellin me that im a nub and flaming me for stupid reasons. I acknowledge im nowhere near the best nor will i ever be. there will always be a better pally than me rofl.
Deathsteed. Coming from a Pally a frostmage/arcane mage is usually the bane of my existance due to their massive cc. me being able to get close most of the time is hard, one misclick, mis-timed button press usually causes instant loss/death for the most part. whereas mages have a bit more of a margin for error. (unless I'm against obviously someone whos not so great at pvp)
Ok so I have Bubble, HoJ, Repentance and HoF.
Lets see here what do you have that can easily counter.
lets start with Repentance. for the love of god noone is usually dumb enough to waste a trinket on repentance. It breaks on damage simple as that. But excluding that argument, you've got a trinket, a silence (if you're arcane) IB, Blink?(can it be used on repentance? haven't played mage in quite some time nor looked at their talents recently excuse me if im wrong on that one). so thats 2-3? ways of getting out of it. and hell if you want to throw it in there you could frost snap and have two IB rofl.(assuming of course hypothermia debuff is gone).and lets not forget if you have an water ele out for the frost nova.
HoJ sure its a ranged stun (sorta) but you can easily trinket or blink. Any mage should always save their blink or trinket for HoJ against a pally thats just known. so then throw in IB and you've got 3 ways to get out of it. 4 if you have an water ele out for the frost nova.
Bubble. (this ones a an obvious one) Run. and get away. untill its off? (yes it can be used offensively but now that the patches came up you wont be seeing retadins running around in bubbles with their shiny wings raping face anymore = P)
HoF, this one for me ALWAYS gets spellsteal(ed?) so using that to escape the freezing touches, frost novas, slow, makes me once again.... kiteable.
Keep in mind I'm not making this response for no reason other than to point out the fact that mages are all about kiting, control and burst. That is a well known fact for ages and is what the class is for. Like you said since you play a mage, (again not trying to disrespect you here just not sure how long you've been playing or what not or pvp experience ect. ect.) You should know full well that kiting a Pally as a Mage is usually a cakewalk unless your cooldowns are all blown = P
With all the slows and snares and immobs they have, jesus getting to them as a paladin is a pain and in arenas... man... I don't even wanna talk about it -__- easiest class to kite hands down. Rofl.
Btw i completely agree with you about the pallys being about survival, i dunno i guess its just a mental thing like an image of what a paladin should be. I mean come on, A over zealous stalwart defender of Justice doesnt shouldnt kill like crazy, he should be either fighting for good and justice or staying there till the oppenent changes heart (or something like that 0.0) taking everything because he feels that everyone has good in them. And protecting and watching over others.
Simon Oct 27th 2008 7:13AM
When I first had a go with ret on the recent 3.02 beta, it was obvious that ret was stupidly overpowered.
I was doing as much damage with my 65 retadin in a mixture of levelling blues and greens as I was with my similarly equipped fire mage on live.
So I have 2 comments from this:
- I agree with the article in that Blizzard should NOT have let a change like this onto the live servers i.e. to let people play for real with a class that was completely imba.
The only way I can explain it is that they were under pressure to get the patch live as WAR was a threat to them and they needed to get people something new to do on live and to get Wrath out to distract them from a shiny new game.
- The other point is that people should know better to complain - or perhaps that there are enough people out there who like a keyboard face rolling class.
I should add at this point that I'm specced ret on live - but only because I can slice through mobs and level fast - but the idea of playing an 'i win lol' class like this through 70-80 would be awful as there's no challenge.
Above and beyond this, apart from GC comments about redesigning the class, I still think that pala needs a lot of work.
By this I don't mean raw DPS or heal numbers - I mean in terms of gameplay.
Despite the changes, it's still too much of an autoattack class and even with ret I'm often spending 2-3 seconds waiting for my CDs to be up.
I'd like to see far more situatuational abilities/strikes to get the pala feeling like a holy warrior. There's just too many situational baseline buffs, which is fine for holy but boring for ret at any rate.
I haven't played prot on live, but on beta it seemed to be mostly there - again some more situational attacks wouldn't go amiss.
Anyway to sum up - for me, the pala is not about a numbers thing but the fact that it's so close to feeling like a living breathing holy warrior with lots of fun situational attacks but unfortunately when I'm looking to press that extra key/ability I'm just left looking at my CDs and waiting waiting for them to end...
bendak Oct 27th 2008 7:17AM
Same thing happened to hunters in 2.0 pre-TBC. There was a knee jerk reaction to nerf us significantly before TBC came out, when that ended up being a mistake and only now, almost 2 years later, are we re-buffed to be more in line with other classes for PVP.
The same thing will happen to you, retadins. Look forward to getting re-balanced in 18 months or so once they've observed you at 80 for a while.
bendak Oct 27th 2008 7:19AM
I should also add, I think some re-balancing was in order but it might take care of itself at 80, I don't know. I just personally think a rogue should have more PVP dps than a paladin. Currently, this is not the case. But like I said, it could change at 80. This is all knee-jerk. Just get used to it.
Greg Oct 27th 2008 7:23AM
Glad im holy
patrick Oct 27th 2008 8:25AM
I'm sure I'm repeating earlier posts, but hey, I'm ret, I'm lazy.
I've had a ret pally for a year, was my first toon. Levelling up was in hindsight a total pain compared to other classes I levelled, I just didn't know it.
And I kept the ret spec at 70, partly to be stubborn, but partly because healing doesn't interest me and tanking is a bit tricky to pick up when you are a noob who doesn't know how to play (I now have a warrior tank).
Also, I like the idea of a ret pala. A damage dealing dps who can throw the odd heal in and helps out his companions. What's not to like about that. Is not selfish like rogues and dps warriors who basically do lotsa damage but don't really help anyone else.
I got that guy in full s1/s3 gear through being owned constantly in BGs and arena. Then I had to get him s2/s4 (though I only got 2 items, I can't be bothered with WOTLK coming). I then moved to pve and fought to get accepted beyond kara and am now SSC/MH with my guild.
All through that time, I sucked. When I had significantly better gear and/or met someone really bad at pvp I'd own but in general, even when I (and my team mates) felt I'd done all I can I was usually owned.
In pve I was always the last one picked, except when our holy pala led the raids and recognised my crusader judgement advantage. And I generally cam mid to lower in the damage meters and had to whine about all my buffs and self heals not being counted.
To be honest, my tank became my main.
Then the patch came out....and I owned. I was topping the damage meters - often by 25-40% in all raids and coming 3rd or 4th in heals in 10 mans and 6th in 25 mans. I got my arena rating to 1800 and basically wiped everyone in BGs or arena who wasn't a ret pala, though my gear mean I nailed most of them too as they were usually prot/holy to ret converts who had blues vs my veng/brutal. It's been the most fun 3 weeks of my time in the game.
So, Firstly: I had to put up with a year of sucking and having to play a character I didn't pick first (the warrior) over the one I wanted to play. So when I get 3-4 weeks of being totally OP, I think I frigging deserve it and those of you who complain about it in your locks, rogues, warriors, mages etc can kiss my plate covered *rse. How dare you complain about a short period in the period before an expansion that a neglected class gets to have some fun. Seriously, screw you.
Secondly: Its not all wine and roses. Sure we got bubbles, cleanses, hands of freedom, judgements, LOH etc etc etc. But that's a bloody lot of buttons to be pressing in a fast paced arena match or in a key battleground node. I'm sure only the top 10%, mainly the young and nimble fingered, can pull all those tricks out of the bag when needed without delay. And if they can, good on them. It's showing more skill than spamming sinister strike or shadowbolts and fear or the druid trick of clicking a HOT and running around a lot. Most of us however will not be able to draw on all the powerful resources there when needed. So don't whine about them all.
Thirdly: Perhaps a lot of ret owning you all is because we've had to become more skillful and cunning due to sucking. Perhaps you locks and rogues had it so easy that you got complacent whilst we honed our skills to a higher level just to get by. Now we are better armed we are owning you due to just being better. I'm sure that's only a small explanation but I don't think you can overlook it. Perhaps ret will be dominant even after nerfing to some extent, simply because we learnt to play the hard way, without the benefit of being able to fear or interrupt or any ranged attack whatsoever. If that's the case, then I suggest you roll ret and l2p.
Fourthy: Half of Blizzards problem is that ret gear sucks. They've made a naked ret pala so poweful because we just don't get the scaling benefits from our gear. True a pally in blues should not own a vengeful anything nor come above T4/5 dps on raids. But it's not translating to stupidly high numbers in the S4/T6 pallies. I suspect the gap will diminish significanlty once we all get to 80. So I hope Blizz just focusses on better gear coefficients instead of the cheap, easy solution they went for of just inflating our base stats. And I hope the rest of you realise there is no point whining when it's less than 3 weeks until the OPness at 70 doesn't matter. Just let us have our fun.
Finally: Yeah, we need to be nerfed. After 3 weeks I'm kinda bored with topping damage meters and owning everyone and I'd probably get bored with the game if it remained so easy. I think most ret palas (whilst differing on how long we should be awesome) would agree with that. I just hope this jealous whining that completely ignores our years of pain doesn't cause the nerf to be over done.
Here endeth the sermon
DeathPaladin Oct 27th 2008 12:48PM
You know, your post made me notice something about people complaining about paladins (particularly the ones who feel that the nerfs aren't enough until ret is "put back in its place").
When the counter-point of rogues, mages, druids, warriors, etc. get brought up, the common response is "retlol facerolls while requiring no skill", then proceeding to list off tactics that require some impeccable cooldown timing (like somehow never being around groups of players more than once every 5 minutes so they can bubble), and claim that we're putting up DPS that quite frankly requires gear above my pay grade, which suggests that the paladin in question has actually put some amount of investment into retribution.
And for people saying "quit whining, if paladin is reduced to retlol, hloly, and plolt (yeah, that last one is contrived), you'll get buffed", don't then ignore the responses of veteran paladins who point out that historically this has come after months of either playing a broken spec or being pigeonholed into a certain role, if the buff comes at all. I'm a really new player by WoW standards, but I still know that I shouldn't expect a magical fix to be right around the corner when in the past it has not been the case. Blizzard has had a history of being quick with nerfs but much slower with buffs in a lot of cases, not just with paladins. Paladins just feel it more than most classes because they've been pretty consistently tossed between OP and "STFU and heal/tank/buff"
Axolotl Oct 27th 2008 8:26AM
If they want to nerf us paladins again, then they should refund our talent points once more, so we can leave our Paladins to wait for Blizz to finaly fix them in a propper way and give them some decent DPS when not specced for it (they'll nerf it when specced for it, so don't bother anymore).
First they nerfed our burstcapacity through hotfix, now this, an all-spec-unbalanced-nerf?
I already feel the lack of burst as being kited once more, but not being able to do anything about it anymore ..., well back to the days of being a free HonorKill :-/
Maybe I'll get my druid alt up-to-speed in the next two weeks and be able to start Northrend as Druid in stead.
I propose all paladins go on strike, don't play your paladins anymore and Blizz will realise they might have overdone it this time, why don't they just cancel the class alltogether, might work faster than just taking the fun out of them.