Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsGhostcrawler talks about Paladin nerfs
by Zach Yonzon 
Oct 27th 2008 at 1:30AM
In the Beta forums, which players seem to be unable to post on at the moment, Ghostcrawler outlined the nerfs and explained the reasoning behind each one. Over at the live forums, he answered some questions fielded by players from several upset posts. It's a very illuminating read, and here are some of the interesting points:
- On Retribution burstiness as part of design - "Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond."
- On Paladins running out of mana - "we might as well take the mana bar off the UI because it was just irrelevant to hitting any buttons."
- On why they said Retribution was fine (even during BlizzCon, where the now-famous joke quote was uttered) - "Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun."
- On other classes now laughing (again) at Retribution - "Well, they're jerks."
The real good news, however, is that Blizzard is actively tuning the class instead of ignoring it. This gives me hope for better balance, particularly when Ghostcrawler talks about how the nerfs to Seals damage affects the other two specs, as well. He says that they realize that Holy and Protection are affected by the nerfs, too, "and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation".
Hopefully this means that talents deep in both trees will be reworked or buffed to compensate for the massive 20% damage nerf. I'm hoping even more that Blizzard addresses other key issues of the Retribution spec, such as mobility and the inability to overcome healing now that burst potential has been, ahem, nerfed to the ground. With Blizzard's close focus on PvP -- and a large reason for the nerfs come from PvP numbers -- I hope these perennial issues will be fixed, too. Head over to the forums for more from Ghostcrawler.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 7 of 10)
Dumag Oct 27th 2008 8:26AM
Ret needs a nerf, but not a big one.
My shaman is in T5/T6 gear and about 2100 AP (for roughly 1100 dps on a raid boss fully buffed), and I was hanging around Halaa while we owned it.
A level 67 paladin showed up flagged from his bombing run, and I decided to give him a slap on the wrist - if you're going to world PVP at that level, you'll get killed.
We fought for three minutes. I won, but only barely. This little ret pally was hitting me for 1100 on average, bubbling and casting lay-on-hands at the right times.
I will admit fully that the tiny pally was skillfully played, but victory was not nearly as easy as it should have been with our gear and level disparity.
As for the shift in Retadin attitude:
They are obviously enjoying themselves. An alliance ret paladin in Undercity wreaked havoc with impunity, one-shotting myself and a warlock, even after we'd made the first strike.
I've seen ret pallies storm around Nagrand stealing every mob right out from under other players' noses.
I've seen ret pallies, eager to show off, flagging themselves and begging duels in neutral areas.
The problem here is one of self-actualization. Pre-patch, there were several "bastard specs" that had a bad name. These specs were the leveling specs, under-utilized in raids and usually passed over for instance groups. Usually played by people disinterested in learning to play the class in a useful or helpful manner, they are infamous for ruining low-level instance groups by overpulling, ignoring coordination and kill order, and generally being rude and disrespectful.
I'm talking about the Enhancement Shaman who just discovered Windfury and a two-hander, the Ret paladin who bites off more than he can chew and then bubbles, the Beast Mastery hunter who insists on letting his pet growl-tank, and the frost mage who casts blizzard before the mobs even get to the tank.
I'm talking about every healer-killing chucklehead who ninjas drops, annoys the team, and wastes our time.
Nerfs and buffs are Blizzard's department - we can comment, but ultimately we're howling into the wind. We can, however, control our interactions. So I say this to you, ret paladins: I am glad you're finally having fun. You guys have had the short end of the stick for a long time and I'm glad you can finally play the way you want. That said, Azeroth isn't that big, and we all have to get along one way or another.
A warlock Oct 27th 2008 8:26AM
I for one, welcome the downfall of our former retardin overlords.
Dyermaker Oct 27th 2008 8:27AM
As I sent to Ghostcrawler directly...
--
1. How do you go from "As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high." on 10/16/08 to 20% cut to DPS across the board on 10/24/08? Less than a week. Did you have a sudden revelation? How are you suggesting that Divine Storm might return to Holy damage at 80 one day and days later neutering the damage output to this degree? Please, describe to me how you could be so wrong for five months and suddenly feel you got it right in less than a week?
2. Can you explain to me the differences between your intended "blue rage bar" mechanic and the current mana replenishment? How do you design changes that you claim allow us to function as warrior or rogue would and then make the changes you have just put on beta? Does a warrior on a raid have to worry about not getting enough rage at the end of the fight to use his Execute to its potential? Does a warrior have to worry about re-building rage in PvP when he moves on to the next fight? It was clear when you stated this change in paradigm that mana functioning as rage was seen as necessary for Paladins to meet your expectations for this expansion, and yet these changes seem to me to counter act that intended purpose.
3. I would like to talk real numbers. Here's a link to my guild's most recent Brutallus kill.
http://wowwebstats.com/ar4bx16frnfra?s=112159-135941
I see myself reaching the 5% rage for DPS that you suggested was your goal for all DPS classes. I know some of my fellow raiders are better players than I am, but as an alliance paladin I was able to reach 2186 DPS on Brutallus before 3.0, so I like to think I can hold my own. Gear looks relatively even to me, so it seems that I am right on target here... right?
By my numbers, your changes would have made my DPS on this fight 2002 instead of 2993. Now, this does not take into account the Righteous Vengence change, I really have no idea how to model it on my spreadsheet. Can you tell me using your spreadsheet, what would my numbers have looked like for this fight? I sincerely do not see how it will be possible I can be within 5% of the rest. Quell the cries, give us specific numbers and use this fight as an example. If you have the new math and you're so certain of it you're willing to risk kicking paladins in the gut two weeks before launch, lets use that to show people exactly what you are intending. Lets see your math speak for itself. No one can argue with math, right?
I am very interested in your modeling this fight with the new changes. I think if you can show what you claim to be the case, no one in these forums will be able to argue.
4. These numbers also have one important distinction, Brutallus is a demon. That means I am reaching this plateau of 5% using undead only abilities and my 4% damage boost (three percent from talents, one from glyph). Should Paladins expect to be within the 5% of other melee DPS all the time, or only on undead/demon bosses? Should we expect 20% less (Holy Wrath and Excorcism accounted for 11% of my damage according to the reports and lets not forget the 4% off the top).
Should Retribution Paladins expect to be sat for any non-undead raid fight since we will be unable to remain competitive?
5. These changes do not make mention of the WotLK boss armor change. Can you describe what your expectations are with that accounted? What do you see as the numbers?
6. During beta I reported something I was seeing in PvP. It appeared that resilience was doing nothing. Are you prepared to admit that the entire problem with Paladin PvP burst is the failure of resilience functioning? Paladin abilities should not reach such high crit rates against opponents with 400 resilence. I was clear to me then, as it is now, your knee jerk reactions are due to your inability to see this error. I cannot say what is causing the problem, whether its just paladins or other classes, but it was very apparent to me that it was there. My guess is that resilience is not scaling as well as it should because its been made to account for level 80 which people have not yet hit.
Can you state for certain that you have evaluated the crit rate of Paladin PvP abilities and were comfortable with the way things were working before you made these changes?
7. Since these changes seem to contradict many of the suggested goals and expectations for WotLK, can you clarify or provide the new expectations? We were supposed to have a blue rage bar, but now we're not. We were right on the mark for PvE DPS, but a week later we simply were way too high. Is the 5% expectation still supposed to hold water, or you change your minds on that one too in the last couple of days? Are we still supposed to be Warriors of the Light, or should we expect to be "WarriorLite".
What should we expect. How long should we expect it? Why should we believe it will not change in 6 days yet again?
Armani Oct 27th 2008 11:33AM
Amen Bro!
I would really want to know what can I expect from rets from now on... Cuz Pala is the only class I enjoy, but im tired of being a helbot.
Hesed Oct 27th 2008 8:25AM
So we are at where we were before but now we HAVE TO push more buttons.
Matty Oct 27th 2008 9:18AM
It could be worse guys, you could be Ele Shamans :-(
Naix Oct 27th 2008 10:29AM
Those are quite OP and should be brought back in line.
James Riggs Oct 27th 2008 9:18AM
Just another example of PVP ruining the fun of a class. Way to fall into the Everquest trap again, Blizzard.
Ryan Oct 27th 2008 10:48AM
Dunno about your guild, but our pally was hitting around 3500 dps on Brut -- way ahead of any other class. He's probably the best player we have and one of the best geared, but something is out of whack there. If you aren't meeting the bar with the current state of the game, I'd say the problem is you.
MikeMachine Oct 27th 2008 9:19AM
This is a bit of a drastic cut, I mean 20%? I'm still under the impression that all classes got a huge offensive bump with Echoes. I saw a 190% increase in damage to my Hunter post patch, without even going into MM as far as I was pre-patch.
In BG I still never saw this "overwhelming power." With a Paladins movement issues, shouldn't they get a bump in damage over other classes regardless? I mean it's hard enough to get in close to most classes, a Pally should be rewarded for doing so with a decent burst and sustained damage over time.
Either that or give us (Pally alt) an in combat charge ability to the ret tree with a 3 minute or so cool down. This way we have a way to get close.
ruby Oct 27th 2008 9:05AM
Speaking as a protadin (that respecs weekly to take on healing), I know the day will come (at 80) when we're back to having issues maintaining threat even while spamming everything we have.
I would love to see Benediction dropped from the ret tree (blech!) and either a talent for increasing retribution aura damage, or some kind of % boost to consecration damage.
Pretty please.
RetPallyJil Oct 27th 2008 12:08PM
I gotta say, all hyperbole aside, I am seriously considering whether playing WoW is worth the time I put in.
There are THREE paladin specs, Blizzard. And, much as this may shock you, there are customers who really like that third tab.
No matter how few of us there are, there is still no excuse for you treating your customers like this. None at all.
TO THE SKY!
Muse Oct 27th 2008 12:13PM
Could some kind american player please post in GC's thread on the official forum and ask that a similar one be opened on the european boards? We currently have no designated venting place.
Wargo Oct 27th 2008 12:37PM
Alot of you paladins keep mentioning the kiting issue and how your BoF can be dispelled, etc. You also love to mention how a mage can burst too blah blah blah. Then you convieniently leave out the fact that mages wear CLOTH and can only invis if they dont have a DoT on them or DELAY their death sitting in a block of ice while you laugh at them. Oh, did I mention they can't heal themselves either? You also refuse to mention the classes that DON'T kite you, like warriors and rogues, who by the way, you can make yourself immune to thier damage and burst them down in 3 seconds. Yes. A warrior. In plate. Dead in 3 seconds unless they're prot. So please, spare me the QQ. Burst damage in PvP was way out of line and PvE dps was just as overpowered. That's all I have to say about that. Just hope and pray Blizz is merciful and doesn't truly "nerf you to the ground". I'll admit ret was the butt of many jokes but I don't want them reverted back to that status. Let Ret be useful in raids, balance out dps/survivability, and everyone will be happy.
twh Oct 27th 2008 10:59AM
How conveinient that you forgot the kiting classes have means to keep paladins at a distance. Frost mages now have more means of snaring paladins than they do after dispelling and keeping up. Hand of Freedom? Spell stolen. Hammer of Justice? Either resisted or Blinked. Repentance? Ice Blocked.
And don't even get me started on Hunters and Disengage.
The other melee classes have other tools to take own. Remember disarm and dismantle? That's what I thought.
Foxglove Oct 27th 2008 12:41PM
It wasn't fair to always-been ret pallys and it wasn't fair to any other class to release buffs they knew going in they'd nerf to oblivion.
I agree it's great Blizz is paying any mind - even on Saturday night as posts in the live forums were flying, someone at Blizz was busy locking up any thread making reference to canceling accounts. So someone cares enough to at least shut people up and work on spin control. Now if only we could get anyone at Blizz to give a good gd about priests. (In their forums not even the thread titled "Top 10 reasons priests should quit wow" was locked.)
Jinsu Oct 27th 2008 9:29AM
I find it funny everyone is like "poor ret pallies" when everyone cheered with glee when hunters got nerfed during patch 2.0.
twh Oct 27th 2008 11:01AM
Just to let you know, and in case you haven't been reading the comments, people aren't sympathizing at all and they never did. They're still stuck in the mindset that we should be in the back of raids healing.
twh Oct 27th 2008 11:01AM
Just to let you know, and in case you haven't been reading the comments, people aren't sympathizing at all and they never did. They're still stuck in the mindset that we should be in the back of raids healing.
MechChef Oct 27th 2008 2:31PM
Okay, we get it. Ret has sucked for so long, and now that they imbalanced it in the opposite direction, you've become addicted to being a walking IWIN button. That's fair, but you guys can hardly be surprised that you're getting dialed back.