Ghostcrawler talks about Paladin nerfs

In the Beta forums, which players seem to be unable to post on at the moment, Ghostcrawler outlined the nerfs and explained the reasoning behind each one. Over at the live forums, he answered some questions fielded by players from several upset posts. It's a very illuminating read, and here are some of the interesting points:
- On Retribution burstiness as part of design - "Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond."
- On Paladins running out of mana - "we might as well take the mana bar off the UI because it was just irrelevant to hitting any buttons."
- On why they said Retribution was fine (even during BlizzCon, where the now-famous joke quote was uttered) - "Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun."
- On other classes now laughing (again) at Retribution - "Well, they're jerks."
The real good news, however, is that Blizzard is actively tuning the class instead of ignoring it. This gives me hope for better balance, particularly when Ghostcrawler talks about how the nerfs to Seals damage affects the other two specs, as well. He says that they realize that Holy and Protection are affected by the nerfs, too, "and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation".
Hopefully this means that talents deep in both trees will be reworked or buffed to compensate for the massive 20% damage nerf. I'm hoping even more that Blizzard addresses other key issues of the Retribution spec, such as mobility and the inability to overcome healing now that burst potential has been, ahem, nerfed to the ground. With Blizzard's close focus on PvP -- and a large reason for the nerfs come from PvP numbers -- I hope these perennial issues will be fixed, too. Head over to the forums for more from Ghostcrawler.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
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Reader Comments (Page 9 of 10)
Clbull Oct 27th 2008 11:35AM
Mmmmm let me taste your tears Ret Paladin. Oh they taste so good
Krohnos Oct 27th 2008 11:52AM
Lol, when i see these posts. The thing is you are jelious that we (pallys) finally can do something on our own. Most of the whiners are prolly dps classes and this means brainless. Rogues what you do? Hitting 2 buttons on a raid, hm, you are OP, /clap. Locks: you hit 4 buttons, mmm, booost OP! So the thing is have you ever tried healing in a raid? Prolly not coz you think you are soooo OP because you are a DPS class, thats all. So finally pally having some chance in solo, that is what hurts you. All of my chars are healing classes (pala (A), pala (H), priest, shammy) because i like the healing role but if i have to do something solo, its byebye 5 mins a mob. Im starting to have enough of WoW coz with healing classes its almost impossible to do anything by your own, its a bit better now with the new patch but still, if im holy im a free kill to anyone. You cry coz we bubble and HS? HAve you ever tried to think about why? (prolly not, for a DPS class you dont need brain) Because thats the only thing we can do you nerds. So before you retards start to spit on ret pallys first think about blizz, they screw up the game in the last patches and you get owned by ret pallys because you cant play your class. Im ret now and i got owned by everyone coz i never tried it before. And yes killing a holy pally takes sooo much skill. I could whine about rogues, they keep me in stun lock if my bubble is on CD, should i whine to blizz that, brr,brr, nerf rogues? No. Im not like that. Blizz is not nerfing pally because its OP rather then lot of jerks like you cant play your classes. And here we come, we suck again, back to holy so we have some chance to raid. Seriously, go try a healer and use your brain with it, oh great OP dps classes... I bet 1% of you, ok, 0.5% of you have a class with a single healing spell.
Krohnos Oct 27th 2008 11:56AM
Oh, and blizz can kiss my shiny pally ass aswell.
Tseran Oct 27th 2008 11:56AM
I tried playing a pally once. I tried as a combination of Ret and Prot to help leveling. This was pre-BC and it was a joke. It was a very painful leveling. I gave up. I tried again more recently, and it was easy. TOO EASY. I'm sorry, but Ret is currently way overpowered. I said the same thing about my Lock when I leveled them. WAY overpowered. I was completing 3 man quests solo as a lock. That is just nuts. Not even Pre-BC ones. Ones with big nasty elites that would one or two shot cloth normally. And now Retadins are looking like the gods of damage. We went into Kara this weekend to poke the new boss and I saw way too much of the pally damage. It seemed that everyone with a pally wanted to bring them, just to smack everything super hard. I don't have the numbers, but I agree, nerf hard first, then you can tune up. It is all psychological. If you nerf harder first, then when you get the tuning right and have to tune back up a bit, they will all be a little more comfortable with the damage they are doing and will feel like it is more of a buff.
Also, remember, all your numbers in the world will be meaningless in 16+ days.
Kaleokalani Oct 27th 2008 3:27PM
You mean an undead-slaying class in its DPS spec does a higher percentage damage against undead mobs in an undead area?
Let me get a pen, I need to write this down.
vine Oct 28th 2008 5:14PM
@ Kaleok
rofl, win :)
Tseran Oct 28th 2008 7:58PM
Wow, I didn't realize Curator, Maiden, and the new Scourge Invasion boss were undead. I guess they must have just changed that in the most recent patch. Of course you are right, DPS paladins SHOULD be doing near double damage on all bosses of a similarly ilevel geared DPS spec mage.
Get over yourself. Ret Paladins were overpowered, and every one of them I raid with agree.
Maolrubha Oct 27th 2008 12:00PM
Let me throw in my two cents as to how I'd like to see the Best Theoretical Paladin Hybrid Build look.
First and foremost, I think Paladins should be built around the idea of survivability. We wear plate. Divine Shield and Lay on Hands seem like the backbone of the Paladin idea, so if we're going to be lackluster, we should at least be able to be the last one standing. 1 minute cooldown on Divine Shield and 5 minutes on Lay on Hands.
Give us Redoubt early on in the Prot tree. Put it back where it was! Give us Holy Shock early in the holy tree so that if we can't have a useful HOT at least we can have a useful insta-cast. Same with Improved Ret Aura. For that matter, if we're going to be hybrid-support-classes, give us auras worth using. Ret Aura is nice, now. How about we work on concentration aura, next? If we can't be the best healers or the best ret or the best prot, let us at least SURVIVE and provide usefulness to those around us. Give us more STA buffs early in the prot tree as well. Survival. Hybrid. Usefulness.
I don't mind being a buffbot. I really don't. But for the Light's sake, at least make us USEFUL buffbots. GIVE US ONE HOUR BLESSINGS, FOR CRYING OUT FREAKING LOUD!
Let us *at the very least* stick around until the last. If we can't burst people down, at least let us WEAR THEM DOWN THROUGH ATTRITION.
ruby Oct 27th 2008 1:18PM
Hear! Hear! *clap clap*
Runstadrey Oct 27th 2008 12:17PM
Once again, it is Arena that is screwing up the entire rest of the game.
Blizzard should just split off the ignoramuses populating the arena crowd into their own game and be done with 'em.
Krohnos Oct 27th 2008 12:35PM
You are 100% right! Unfortunatelly i play on a PvP server. The reason i choosed the PvP server is my irl friends are there and - i hope we all agree - PvP server is always stronger in any aspects then a PvE. Sometimes when i got ganked by way higher lvls i just wished if i could teleport to that retarded nerd who killed me and kick him in the face. I would have been laughing soo good.
Back to topic.
The sorry thing is, i said it with my own mouth: ill never start a healer again. Thanks blizz that i have to stand in the nerd dps queue. But i wont. Just delete WoW and take my family out to some beach with cocktails :D.
Blizz will kill himself if they continue this.
Tone Oct 27th 2008 12:24PM
And this is what happens when PVP RUINS PVE. My account is canceled along with many other paladin's. I'm not gonna sit around for the next 2 years waiting for a fix.
Krohnos Oct 27th 2008 12:27PM
Sorry for every for those posts but i feel it that way. I have a question to blizz: why i have to suck in solo if im a healer? Some would say, because pvp. Well, i dont give a shit to pvp, i really dont care its for nerds who cant achieve anything just ganking and shout how OP they are. I play wow for the fun, and healing is fun for me but i have to do a lot more things in the game. Cant be always some1 there with me if im doing dailies for example. Game mechanics suck atm.
To: Maolrubha -
We dont need to be the best in anything, ppl sets up these stupid things. Im pretty happy with the new holy build for example. Priests always cry about pally is better healer then them, no, none of them are better, just has different playstyle. Can a pally heal a full group in 2 secs? No. Priest? Yes she can. Does the priest runs out of mana faster? Yes, if you are not so handy with the priest. Pally can run out of mana aswell. For druids. Do pallys have HoT? No! So the who is better healer war is over here i think. Are we gear dependent? Oh, hell yes we are! FYI:
the paladin is the most gear dependent class in the game. I know, trust me.
Poliorcetes Oct 27th 2008 12:35PM
I kinda wish Paladins had not been made quite so powerful and had avoided attention. I began my tenure as a 70 pally as Ret, but soon gave it up when I found that it still took too long to kill anything. Forget pvp, OOMed too fast and couldn't outdps anyone's healing. So I went Holy, which was where I was needed anyway.
Then the patch came out, and my poor Holy pally was raped repeatedly by Ret paladins. I went back to Ret myself, and hadn't enjoyed the class so much in a long time of playing WoW. Very satisfying to actually kill something and give some grief back to people that saw me as an easy kill. In the end, I knew the nerf was coming and went back Holy.
The silver lining though is that all this is meaningless in a few weeks with the new expac. I will be leveling as Ret and hopefully we'll be balanced and viable, able to stand against the other classes in PvP and PvE.
Malik Oct 27th 2008 12:45PM
I play a Holy pally that went ret for fun, yea it's fun but I do see the imbalance. That were betting the crap out of my Shammy and Druid in pvp. We all knew a nerf was comming, but I still think ret will be fun to play.
Rusty Oct 27th 2008 12:50PM
"He says that they realize that Holy and Protection are affected by the nerfs, too, "and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation".
I hope the Compensation is a 59 min reduction to the cool down on harth because we are going to need it :P
Angus Oct 27th 2008 12:48PM
Okay, so a surgical strike means losing around 15% of the threat a protection paladin generates in order to nerf Ret because they feel Ret was doing too much.
I'd hate to see them doing a massive nerf...
I don't think their way of doing this was right. There is no way for the other two trees to opt out of this nerf that hurts them a ton in either solo or groups.
Seal of retribution: Make it go off spell power alone. Have a very nice co-efficicent so a holy paladin can use it to solo. Make it not work with any of the neat Ret abilities and not proc off of HotR.
Righteous Fury: Increases the Threat generated by holy spells by 50%. Also increases the damage done by holy spells by X%. Does not increase the damage of Retribution Abilities. (Note what this leaves out)
Make it so that you can boost tanking and solo damage by enough to make it count.
Improved Righteous Fury: Decreases damage dealt to you by X. Also allows retribution abilities to be affected by Righteous Fury.
Switch Righteous Fury and Sacred Duty in the tree. I had thought with the threat increase it might actually be okay to leave it there. They will have to put 13pts in the prot tree and the threat increase will pay for the ability to do more damage in PVE, but then in PVP they are still fine. This is more elegant.
Make Divine Storm Holy damage again. Lower the damage a bit. The AP nature of the spell is important and they can lose some damage to get it back. Otherwise it is much better against low armor targets and horrible against high armor targets.
There. Ret has lost some damage, but they can still dish it out and in PVE are fine. Holy and Protection now get to be effective.
In PVE a holy paladin doing solo stuff won't care about threat and will have Seal of Retribution.
In PVE a prot paladin can tank as normal, will do more damage so they are contributing better to a raid on bosses and in general, and you can adjust their damage on multi-mob pulls a little better.
In PVP Holy gets to do some damage if caught and can swing back while trying to survive long enough to have someone pull the person on them off.
Protection in PVP is still a joke, but, hey, can't have every spec viable. At least I can tank in AV or hold off attackers for a little while and annoy them.
Krohnos Oct 27th 2008 12:54PM
Oh and why the NERDY SHEISE the healing weapons has only 41 dps??!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!? Hm, where was that gold seller site......................................................coz im not going to solo as holy....................
vine Oct 28th 2008 4:58PM
I'm assuming (hoping) this is sarcasm. Holy spec does bucketloads of damage while soloing.
jtbusterltwo Oct 27th 2008 1:22PM
i hope ret pallies won't be susceptible to gay priest manna burn after the replinishment nerf with judgments of the wise :(