Officers' Quarters: Hired muscle
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Raids after 3.0.2 are far less difficult than they once were. My server has pick-up groups forming for everything up to and including Black Temple. Seeing content these days isn't so much about being in the right guild as it is being online at the right time. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that many high-end raiders are looking more closely at which guilds to join, choosing them more for who their members are than what tier they're farming.
This week, one officer is wondering whether or not to relax his application standards for a few well-geared players who want to join. Is it worth the risk?
Scott,
I'm the GM of a casual to, what I like to call, medium core (that really sounds way to much like mediocre) raiding guild. Before the last patch we had Kara on farm as well as Gruul's and Mags. We were farming the first 2 bosses of ZA and Void Reaver in TK. Many of us want to begin serious raiding when WotLK hits in a few weeks but we don't quite have the numbers for consistent 25 man raids now.
I was hanging out grinding up inscription on my druid when I got a bunch of whispers from different people asking for guild invites and information.
I, as is our guild policy, asked them to visit our website and put in an application. The web service we use has an automated application system that includes a player's armory link and I generally check it before sending a ginvite to get a good feel of where they may fit in to our guild. I clicked on the link expecting greens/blues and maybe some T4/badge gear. Much to my surprise I'm looking at folks with anywhere from a mix of T4/T5 all the way through full T6. I was excited as hell and had to suppress my urge to invite before the requisite interview.
It seems that with the disbandment of so many raiding guilds there are tons of talented raiders just floating about like Ronin. I'd like to bring many of these talented souls into our fold, but our current recruitment process is a little lengthy and I'm afraid we may lose many good potential members due to a lack of quick action on my part. Should I relax recruiting standards and weed out the bad seeds later or stick with our rather stringent recruiting standards and possibly miss out and a few good players?
Thanks,
Anonymously Agitated
You've got an interesting dilemma here, AA. Adding experienced players can really help your raiding both now and in the future. They may even make everyone in your raids better at it. They can guide you through encounters that they've already done, and they're likely to learn the new encounters in WotLK very quickly.
So there are many possible advantages to bringing these players on board. Your natural instinct is to scoop them up before they get impatient and look elsewhere for a quicker invite. After all, the expansion is only a few short weeks away now.
However, I think skipping your established application process would be a mistake. For one thing, it would send a message to your membership that well-geared players are above the rules. You might justify it under the circumstances, but this type of thing can come back to haunt you. For instance, those new players may expect special treatment in other areas once they've bypassed the application process. If they get it, your regular members might come to resent it and feel like second-class citizens.
Also, keep in mind that applicants are sizing up the guild they're applying to just as you are evaluating them. If it seems like you aren't very stringent about screening recruits, they may not expect much from your membership.
What I suggest is to warn all these applicants that your process is more involved than they might be used to. The ones who are applying because they value your membership and want to be part of that team will endure it. The ones who might be looking for some quick badges before the expansion will look elsewhere. Either way, I think you come out ahead.
Yes, it's possible that you might lose out on a few impatient but otherwise valuable players. But the guild they join may not work for them, and then they might remember that you stuck to your guns about the application. That can say a lot about the type of guild you run. Maybe they'll realize that and reapply.
I also feel obligated to point out that adding Tier-6 players to a Tier-4 guild can be disruptive. Sometimes those players have their own ideas about how raids should be run, what specs players should be, how people should play their class, or how many wipes on a boss is too many. The more vocal among them won't hesitate to point out everything your guild is doing wrong. They might be right about your shortcomings and they might not. However, getting to know them before offering the invitation can prepare you for what they might say or do. And it also gives them some time to figure out what your guild is all about before they come in and stir things up.
Most problems that occur with new members are the result of your existing members not knowing them well enough or your new members not knowing the guild well enough. A thorough application process can sometimes circumvent these pitfalls.
How are other officers dealing with this? Have any of you changed your standards for an exceptional applicant? How did it all work out?
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.
Raids after 3.0.2 are far less difficult than they once were. My server has pick-up groups forming for everything up to and including Black Temple. Seeing content these days isn't so much about being in the right guild as it is being online at the right time. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that many high-end raiders are looking more closely at which guilds to join, choosing them more for who their members are than what tier they're farming.
This week, one officer is wondering whether or not to relax his application standards for a few well-geared players who want to join. Is it worth the risk?
Scott,
I'm the GM of a casual to, what I like to call, medium core (that really sounds way to much like mediocre) raiding guild. Before the last patch we had Kara on farm as well as Gruul's and Mags. We were farming the first 2 bosses of ZA and Void Reaver in TK. Many of us want to begin serious raiding when WotLK hits in a few weeks but we don't quite have the numbers for consistent 25 man raids now.
I was hanging out grinding up inscription on my druid when I got a bunch of whispers from different people asking for guild invites and information.
I, as is our guild policy, asked them to visit our website and put in an application. The web service we use has an automated application system that includes a player's armory link and I generally check it before sending a ginvite to get a good feel of where they may fit in to our guild. I clicked on the link expecting greens/blues and maybe some T4/badge gear. Much to my surprise I'm looking at folks with anywhere from a mix of T4/T5 all the way through full T6. I was excited as hell and had to suppress my urge to invite before the requisite interview.
It seems that with the disbandment of so many raiding guilds there are tons of talented raiders just floating about like Ronin. I'd like to bring many of these talented souls into our fold, but our current recruitment process is a little lengthy and I'm afraid we may lose many good potential members due to a lack of quick action on my part. Should I relax recruiting standards and weed out the bad seeds later or stick with our rather stringent recruiting standards and possibly miss out and a few good players?
Thanks,
Anonymously Agitated
You've got an interesting dilemma here, AA. Adding experienced players can really help your raiding both now and in the future. They may even make everyone in your raids better at it. They can guide you through encounters that they've already done, and they're likely to learn the new encounters in WotLK very quickly.
So there are many possible advantages to bringing these players on board. Your natural instinct is to scoop them up before they get impatient and look elsewhere for a quicker invite. After all, the expansion is only a few short weeks away now.
However, I think skipping your established application process would be a mistake. For one thing, it would send a message to your membership that well-geared players are above the rules. You might justify it under the circumstances, but this type of thing can come back to haunt you. For instance, those new players may expect special treatment in other areas once they've bypassed the application process. If they get it, your regular members might come to resent it and feel like second-class citizens.
Also, keep in mind that applicants are sizing up the guild they're applying to just as you are evaluating them. If it seems like you aren't very stringent about screening recruits, they may not expect much from your membership.
What I suggest is to warn all these applicants that your process is more involved than they might be used to. The ones who are applying because they value your membership and want to be part of that team will endure it. The ones who might be looking for some quick badges before the expansion will look elsewhere. Either way, I think you come out ahead.
Yes, it's possible that you might lose out on a few impatient but otherwise valuable players. But the guild they join may not work for them, and then they might remember that you stuck to your guns about the application. That can say a lot about the type of guild you run. Maybe they'll realize that and reapply.
I also feel obligated to point out that adding Tier-6 players to a Tier-4 guild can be disruptive. Sometimes those players have their own ideas about how raids should be run, what specs players should be, how people should play their class, or how many wipes on a boss is too many. The more vocal among them won't hesitate to point out everything your guild is doing wrong. They might be right about your shortcomings and they might not. However, getting to know them before offering the invitation can prepare you for what they might say or do. And it also gives them some time to figure out what your guild is all about before they come in and stir things up.
Most problems that occur with new members are the result of your existing members not knowing them well enough or your new members not knowing the guild well enough. A thorough application process can sometimes circumvent these pitfalls.
How are other officers dealing with this? Have any of you changed your standards for an exceptional applicant? How did it all work out?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
niko Oct 27th 2008 2:16PM
Sometimes those T6-geared players are completely burned out. T4-based guilds are way more relaxed, comparatively. They might be looking to bring it down a notch. Is that so hard to imagine?
Getting experienced players like this makes a good opportunity for improvement for your core members. Even if they don't stay around forever, it's likely that they will rub off well on those that have always been there.
Bring em in, I say.
yes Oct 27th 2008 11:37PM
Yes, i totally agree. The problem is most of the people in T6 guilds are douche bags (not all). I am thinking of leaving my sunwell guild since I quit raiding and realized I dont like any of them. Sure, having someone link some prot warriors helm loaded with spirit gems and a spellpower enchant is funny the first few times, but it gets old fast.
Lately I've been missing my 'casual' roots where it was just about having fun, and you werent docked dkp for being late to a raid and there wasn't constant elitism in the guild chat channel. If my guild split up, I know Ill be apping to a casual friendly guild, and would prefer to go through the full application process regardless of gear.
zappo Oct 27th 2008 2:22PM
Medium core? Guess that means I'm in a softcore guild. I can't wait for phone sex ads in the AH on Saturday nights!
rick gregory Oct 27th 2008 2:23PM
/agree with not relaxing the process, but I'd look at the process too. Not just for these folk, but in general. A lengthy, involved process for a top tier raid guild is one thing, but might be a bit much for a mid-tier raid guild that, at this point in TBC, is just hitting T5. One reason AA's guild might be short of 25 raiders is the mismatch between how hard it is to get in and the progress of the guild. Or not... that's for AA and officers to evaluate. If you do relax the app process, make i permanent though, not just for these folks.
hold up Oct 27th 2008 2:27PM
I had an extremely similar problem last week. We are a fairly new guild but myself and our officers have been in MH/BT (pre easymode patch 3.0.2). We were just tired of the way our old guild was being run. The guild was focused on getting through the content as fast as possible and that meant picking up anybody with T5+. That resulted in a bunch of elitists in a group where racism, bigotry and hateful slander was commonplace on the vent server and officers were ignoring it because we were steamrolling the content.
But onto the issue addressed here, while recruiting a person in T6 came to me and said that he just wanted to farm T4/T5 casually until WOTLK and was looking for a friendly guild. After talking for a little bit it seemed like he was a nice guy, so I invited him. I came back the next day and he was kicked. Apparently he went on a heroic daily run with 2 guild officers and after telling the officers how they dont know how to play, stopped running the dungeon and camped inside the heroic and refused to move. After that he was kicked from the guild. I havent heard from him since. My belief is that if someone has full T6 and does not have a guild, there might be a good reason for it. Sure, there could be people that leave their guilds for other reasons, such as why I left my old guild, but thats not always the case.
Kelberon Oct 27th 2008 2:28PM
It's also possible that they've burned some bridges in a bigger guild, and they want to start fresh in a new one. And since T5 and T6 gear will (theoretically) be less important in Wrath, they figure starting again with a T4 guild won't be too painful once the expansion hits. Of course, how they burned those bridges can tell you a great deal-"did not get along with class leader" is open to a lot of interpretation.
Shuth Oct 27th 2008 2:34PM
I think I called someone in my previous guild a $*@%ing tool or something to that effect. That probably burnt that bridge.
Paul Denton Oct 27th 2008 2:41PM
Check them out every bit as thoroughly as the guy in T4. "Burned some bridges" is sometimes not the half of it.
I'm on a lower-population server, where there's only been 2-3 serious guilds going beyond Mags and Gruul at any one time, for most of BC. Mine is one of those. Once, while we were at the end of Hyjal/mid-BT, we got an application from a transfer fairly decked out in full T6, Illidan staff and trinket, etc.
A little asking around on his previous server found he was a disliked and disruptive guild-hopper. Realm forum shenanigans after he was turned down further revealed that he was also a serial guild bank ninja who'd been transferring, ingratiating himself with high-end guilds, and stealing as much as he could to leave again on every transfer cooldown.
The bottom line, is to ask for references. If they can't give you a little "employment history," so to speak, that's a huge red flag, no matter how well-geared they are.
Always Something Oct 27th 2008 2:44PM
I hate natzis T5/T6 players they really ruin the game for me, I usually run a couple of heroics with prospects, MgT tends to seperate the players from the noobs, applications weed out people that arent serious about game content and raid progression, with the new 3.0.2 patch content is more accessible to a more variety of players so sure there will be the leeroys of wow whiping groups, but hey thats part of the game too....
We had a T6 pally once in our guild that always barked orders and complain about how the guild was being run... then he got drunk on vent one night and it was all over... no more T6 natzi.......
Scott Oct 27th 2008 3:01PM
Or you could be like me... and you haven't been in a guild for the last 20-30 levels. Of course, I don't have T6 gear either.
Deth Oct 27th 2008 3:19PM
One thing to consider is that these players who are applying are ebaying. With the expansion coming up I have seen alot of players selling their characters hoping to cash in with hopes that they can regear a toon in LK. Pre-patch my guild picked up a tank who claimed to have experience through M'uru, but then failed to understand how to take a portal for Kalegos.
To your point though, I recommend a strong trial period for members if your worried about the application process. It brings people in quicker, and also can streamline the "do they fit" process. See how they work within the guild, do they get along and fit. Make sure they know they are on a short leash and after a while either bring them in fully or remove them.
Lyraat Oct 29th 2008 1:00AM
Completely agree with making the interested raiders go through the established process. I also agree that the process should be examined as well.
More important than gear or skill is compatibility. Anyone can get gear and practice makes perfect, but you're not going to change someone's personality. If you run a few heroics with someone and find them irritating, you don't want that person around during hard progression runs no matter how geared. Remember, it's only one well-geared person. A bonus, yes, but I'd trade 500 dps for raiding with someone I liked. We're here to have fun. One person will not enable a T4 guild down Archimonde, but one person can ruin everyone's fun real fast.
Also, do not forget your current members. Guys (and gals) who struggled through Kara, Gruul's, and Mags are gonna be upset if they lose raid spots to people who obviously don't need anything below T6. Dance with the one who brung ya; in other words, loyalty matters. These are the people who are gonna help with the tough Wrath raids. A ronin today will probably find some hardcore raiding guild once Wrath is released. Let them. You can use their knowledge and expertise on fights: one of our guildies has a main who cleared Sunwell pre-patch and he remains quiet except to note important aspects our raid leader might have missed. But don't rely on them, rely on your loyal base.
Quickly, if you feel your process is long and involved, get your officers together and streamline it.
DrThePunisher Oct 27th 2008 4:36PM
My guild never let up on any applicants. Even friends and family (which was kind of funny at times) had to app. I think the most important comment Scott made was the fact that well geared / experienced players can be disruptive. It's spot on that a lot of them are used to certain ways and can be quite vocal.
I heard "in my old guild... blah blah blah." While sometimes that can be useful, it can also be very obnoxious for the raiders.
As an officer I always let the person know what our policy is and that we are highly interested in them. Those kind of comments go a long way in keeping applicants. Tell them, that your policy is that you don't want them apping all the guilds on your server. That's a clear sign, they want you for your progression / number and not your players / community.
Talking to applicants straight up and direct is the best way from my experience. The good ones always stick around.
haircute Oct 27th 2008 5:56PM
I like how the article basically says most T6 players are socially inept loud mouths. Seems to be true in my experience!
Sylythn Oct 27th 2008 6:30PM
Whatever you do, do NOT relax your standards. Especially if they're as basic as "everyone needs to apply and then we'll interview you". Even if you know for sure they're getting in, make them go through the process. If they can't even manage that, then what kind of loyalty and commitment can you possibly expect from them?
I've actually closed recruitment for the past few weeks and will keep it closed probably until we can run our own Naxx stuff. Why? So our players don't feel pressured to hit 80 or get replaced by some new recruit raider. So we don't get people who are back for LK and then gone. So we don't get people who expect us to blaze through the content like an A-lister and bail on us within a week or two of starting raiding because we're not going fast enough.
Hilton Oct 27th 2008 6:51PM
I don't think it would be a good idea to relax your recruitment standards for a few players. As the author said, it may come back and bite you later.
Ensuring that new recruits gel together with your current guild members will ensure a long term and cohesive group of people once WotLK hits the shelves.
Just a warning, you may find that someone from a "more progressed" raiding guild to have the best intentions of helping people out further down the track, but unintentionally irritating or excluding some of your current members. What happens when a group of people are happy to amble through Kara/ Gruul/ Mags at their own pace are suddenly met by one or two people who suddenly expect a full clear in a matter of minutes?
knid Oct 27th 2008 6:53PM
Definitely do not relax your standards. It wouldn't be fair to those that are already within the guild for two reasons. The first is that they already went through the application process and so probably feel everyone should be made to go through the same process. The second is that the process will allow you to determine if the personality of the potential recruit might be a good fit. Others in this thread have already stated that the individual could be disruptive and would hurt the guild morale more than aid the guild. Even if the short benefit is faster progression, the end result will be stress and discontent within the remainder of the guild.
On the other side, don't be afraid to take in some of these people. However, be up front with them in the expectations. Let them know that you aren't a guild that has traditionally been strong at raiding during the Burning Crusade. It's possible these people really do want to take their game as more casual and those are the individuals you want. It's also possible these people are restless and want some action while the rest of the guilds break apart. These are the people you need to be wary of.
Basically be true to the foundation of your guild.
Adam Oct 27th 2008 6:58PM
If you're happy with your membership, don't jump at the chance to play street hockey just because the new kid has the limited edition Wayne Gretzky Street-Stik. We've got a relatively easy app process, but we still do our background checks and app scrubs. Reputation gets you into our guild. Twin glaives does not.
patrick Oct 27th 2008 10:53PM
I think basically you have to look at whether these guys are filling up any gaps you got in your raid group. If so then fine.
But if not, then you will just be pissing off someone in your guild - maybe an aspiring tank who has been working his arse off farming BOJ or pugging to get gear, or a healer who is proud to have just reached the +spell requirements or a dps who helped others in the guild farm kara, maggy and gruul to get gear and has been waiting for you all to catch up.
If any of these people ever lost a raid spot to the new-comers then they will /gquit faster than you can say 'screw you!'.
Now perhaps if the new people come in and understand that they will only progression raid when one of the old crew is not available and your expectation is that they will help lower geared members improve through farming and that over time they will come to be accepted based on their skills and friendship, then fine. But that's a big if.
Personally, I'd pass. I've seen enough guilds blow up due to this stuff. Good guilds are all mates. Bad guilds are all about gear and status, I think it's a simple as that.
Gimmlette Oct 28th 2008 12:48AM
My guild is kind of going through this as players, burnt out on the bang bang bang of incessant progression look to our casual approach and think,"I never just played the 'game'. These guys are having fun. I want to do that."
They still have to go to the web site. They still have to sit through an interview. That's often where you'll catch someone. "I have to go to your web site? You don't just invite? But I have been places you haven't seen." They still have to go to the web site and read. I can't prove that they have, but if they balk at doing that, what else will they balk at?
Don't relax standards to get some dude in T6. I would go so far as to find out if his guild did disband. I had one guy come to me claiming to just want to have fun and that his guild disbanded. When I asked the name of the guild, he didn't want to tell me then gave me some made up name. There is a way to track characters and my membership coordinator found his former guild was still alive and kicking and he was one they had kicked, for openly yelling at the GL in a raid.
While the temptation is huge to add these strays to your fold, I think you do your guild and yourself a huge favor by running everyone through the process you have established. If it has served you so far, it will continue to serve you and you'll weed out those who won't be a good fit for your guild.