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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsA plea on behalf of frustrated tanks everywhere
by Allison Robert 
Oct 31st 2008 at 6:00PM
Several classes and specs have gotten "knockback" abilities as part of patch 3.02 and the game's transition to Wrath of the Lich King, and I've had fun watching these skills be deployed in battlegrounds to extensive and quite possibly evil use. It's pretty funny watching an elemental Shaman defend AB's lumber mill now, and the AV bridge? Even funnier.And yet...as I laughed, I started to cry inside, because I knew that these skills would also be deployed in 5-man groups and raids to much less amusing effect. And man, it's a real burden being right so often.
Now, 95% of the people I've pugged with since the patch went live have intuitively understood that skills like Typhoon, Blast Wave, and Thunderstorm are really intended for PvP and soloing use, and haven't used them at all. But there is that 5% that hauls them out at every available opportunity (or, if you're a mage in Alex Ziebart's guild, set up a specific Blast Wave rotation guaranteeing that the mobs will never be within 10 yards of the tanks, ever). Which, at least for the purpose of doing actual DPS, mystifies me. None of the skills, far as I can tell, are part of a Shaman, Mage, or Moonkin high-DPS rotation, so I can only assume that the player is simply using them for fun. Fun? Fun? We don't have fun in my groups. Or at least, we sure aren't by the 15th time a pull gets knocked out of position and a stray mob attracts the attention of another mob pack. This is, dare I say it, Not Fun.
It is fairly annoying to see mobs you're trying to build aggro on suddenly not be within range. Or, if you're a tankadin, outside of Consecration. Or, if you'll melee DPS, finding yourself trying to hit something that isn't there anymore. But I think my worst experience so far has been a pugged heroic Magisters' Terrace with a boomkin who was madly fond of Typhoon. As we all know from rather painful experience, the instance requires very careful pulling of caster mobs, line-of-sighting them around corners to force them to move into one position where they can all be tanked, and...huh? What just happened to my elegant little pull? Two melee mobs would come back to me; the three ranged mobs would stay ranged (as ranged mobs tend to do), but not within melee range of the others or themselves.
Ever seen a frantic bear? Not a pretty sight. I ran around like the proverbial chicken, taking additional damage from the melee mobs as my side and rear were exposed, trying to LOS the scattered caster mobs and realizing that I couldn't reposition the pull in such a way to get all of them to move again. "Patrol!" said the moonkin cheerfully.
I have literally never kicked a player from one of my 5-mans, but I came closer to doing it that night than I ever have. We finally succeeded in getting our boomkin to quit using Typhoon, but I'm sure our rogue's nerves were shot for the night, and mine were in the same state. After an ugly series of pulls clearing constantly-moving Sunwell trash, knockbacks have also been officially banned from my guild's raids, and other guilds on my server have enacted the same rule. Sort of. "Actually, I find it rather useful just to have an umbrella policy for these situations," said a guild leader friend of mine. "Annoy me and you're gone."
Save a tank's sanity. Be kind to your melee DPS. PvE knockbacks: JUST SAY NO.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, PvP, Instances, Humor, Classes, Battlegrounds
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
R. Sue Oct 31st 2008 6:39PM
Hunters don't have any knockbacks (except for the reverse knockback goodness of Disengage, or a rhino pet, which is too low DPS to be using in a dungeon anyway), thank God. But it staggers my mind just how many of my fellow DPSers don't understand the concept of not out-aggroing the tank. Personally, I'm so aggro-shy that I have trouble doing my best damage because I'm scared of pulling a mob.
Heroic and raid bosses are designed to beat on somebody with a large HP pool that's being consistently healed, not your squishy pew-pew ass. We aren't built to be beat on, so do your best to avoid it. What's so damn hard to understand?
Vocenoctum Nov 1st 2008 1:28AM
Yeah, it's always fun when the DPS starts before the tank has even engaged the mobs. Just in a group with a boomkin that kept pulling as the tank was moving up. I was odd-man-out in the group (they knew each other I guess), so not a lot I could do.
When I tank, I've had to remind plenty of overeager blasters that "in the race for agro, you're supposed to let the tank win".
hold up Oct 31st 2008 6:44PM
When I was reading this I felt like you were standing alongside me in my most recent H MGT.
We were on the 2 big pulls before the 1st boss. I start the pull and then i get all the mobs in front of me for some nice AOE druid tanking when all of a sudden *BOOM* now all the mobs are spread out all over the room. I have mobs hitting my behind, mobs knocked back into the boss room. I manage to gather them back up into a nice little pack again and *BOOM*. Theyre they go. This time close enough where I aggro the other pack with my AOE taunt. We burn them all down with no deaths (thankfully it was a pretty geared group).
I'm like "What was that?". The boomkin happily says "Typhoon XD"
That was the last time we saw a Typhoon, thank goodness.
Kassu Oct 31st 2008 6:50PM
There should be Glyphs that remove knockback from skills but bump up damage/lower mana cost/cut cooldown etc...
Neirin Nov 1st 2008 3:29AM
when I spec boomkin, the only time I ever use typhoon in PvE is on large AoE groups that are relatively low on health (thus not warranting a hurricane) and even then, I position myself such that the mobs would get pushed into whatever wall they were by (since LoS pulls tend to have all the mobs against the wall anyway it rarely moves them at all). Of course, I only do that in heroics and kara with tanks I know can compensate for bad pulls (though we haven't had any yet do to my pushback as of yet).
The one time I actually used typhoon as anything but something to finish off AoE groups was in ZA when someone lagging on their mount ran straight into a group with 2 flame casters and we needed some fast interrupts and a chance for the tanks to get out in front of the group.
When I'm feral there's nothing I hate more than a pushback-happy dps, though I've encountered a few who really know what they're doing. The other day I ran H SP with an ele shaman and last aggro on one of the secondary targets when his opening chain lighting crit and procced lightning overload. As soon as the mob got near him he hit thunderstorm and dropped the mob right back into my berserk (which is one of the funnest skills ever imo) and I had aggro back almost instantly. This might have just been blind luck, though, I suppose.
peewee_swedem Oct 31st 2008 7:16PM
Common sense isn't. 'nuff said.
Skarlette Oct 31st 2008 7:21PM
Blast Wave is a ton of fun when farming furbolg rep. Round up half a camp, and then BLOOEY! FLYING BEARS ON FIRE! What's not to like?
But, um, yeah, I'd be very careful when using it in an instance. However, it's not the only spell that is good in some circumstances and bad in others. It's part of knowing your class and your role.
A sloppy player who doesn't know what spells to use and when to use them will be a problem, knockback or no knockback.
Eulyss Oct 31st 2008 8:17PM
Knockback is a tool, just like any other. A well placed Typhoon that blows melee and caster mobs together into a tightly packed group into a corner (i.e. the Shattered Halls corridors, or in any of the MgT alcoves), makes life easier for the tank, not harder, and requires minimal repositioning and awareness from the boomkin. Don't ban typhoon and the like. Ban people from using their powers in inappropriate ways. You'll find you can be much more creative that way.
jurandr Oct 31st 2008 7:49PM
I've had my fun with blastwave, but in pvp. In 5mans? I'm generally standing near the healer.. I find they appreciate a quick nova when they pull healing aggro. Not close enough to use a close-range aoe like blastwave, though.
zappo Oct 31st 2008 7:53PM
meh, I think you're preaching to the choir anyway. Anyone who doesn't have enough common sense and restraint not to punt mobs around and away from the tank isn't going to listen anyway.
Mark my words, it'll be a few months into the expansion and people will be complaining that no one wants to be a tank despite the fact that death knights can tank. They'll say all the death knights are spec'd dps, despite the reality is that those that can tank well only do so within a circle of players they trust - basically like it is now.
Yeah, wonder why it's so hard to find a tank...
Ragen Oct 31st 2008 8:00PM
I would have to say boomkins abuse it the most. On my (now) 64 priest, I've partied with two different boomkins on two different occasions in the Mana Tombs.
Both were 70, and both used it religiously. It got to the point to where I would bubble the moonkins beforehand to make sure I would be able to shield the tank if needed.
It was very annoying, but alas, both groups made it all the way though.
So please, if you have a knock back, save it for emergencies, not for regular use.
gmee123 Oct 31st 2008 8:08PM
Using this new tool on my ele shaman just takes a bit of commen sense. I know , i know, thats alot to ask in this game of people at times, but i have used the thunderstorm with outstanding success, especially after i activate my elemental master for instant crits with the thunderstorm on a mob...WOW... But i ALWAYS wait till the tank has sufficient agro to use it. If you don't wait , then your just retarded and SHOULD be kicked. Also, like someone else said, i have used it to not only save my own ass but the healers on a number of occasions where the tank couldnt keep agro for crap, Lord only knows why. Theres not damn excuse for tanks not keeping agro on multiple mobs anymore unless the tank is simply not doing his job. The days of single target tanking should be over and if your tank is doing crap like that, kick their ass out and get a new tank. nuff said. NOW, all you knockback peeps, get out there and knock back responsibly lol. Peace~
Olicon Oct 31st 2008 8:42PM
I wonder if when I turn 80, I can gather a group of mage and go down a raid boss with just series of Blast Wave to keep them out of range. That'd be funny.
TyphoonLarry Oct 31st 2008 8:54PM
With all the changes to AoE tanking I don't see why some tanks have trouble holding aggro. I have not had one problem keeping a group on me through through AoE dps and knockbacks. I'm not even in high-end gear, I was just starting BT (late start to the game) when the patch hit and I'm in badge/T4 gear. Now I'm running everything but Sunwell and I have no problems with knockbacks, as long as they don't pull adds. Time to rethink your tanking rotation.
matomon Oct 31st 2008 10:16PM
Moonkin typhoon ftw when the tank losses agro because of a stun and the mob goes for the healer. Dont allways use it my fellow moonkin but use it when you need to just like cyclone attacking your healers. Just stand 5 yards back from the tank and his consecrate, If the tank get stunned wait for that mob to come on over... THEN BOOM typhoon there butts back into that consecrate.
Pessi Oct 31st 2008 11:17PM
I guess if you compaire it to a warrior/priest/warlock running in and popping fear then you see how distruptive it is.
If you see a fear in an instance then its probably a last resort move. Knockbacks should be the same and fingers crossed in time the boomchickens, mages and mentalshammys will learn that too.
Balius Nov 1st 2008 3:28AM
I've seen Typhoon used well, knocking an enemy away from the casters and in front of the tank to be easily picked up.
Thing is, a) the tank knew it was coming and was OK with trusting the caster to protect the ranged group and b) the caster didn't use it to scatter the group the tank was trying to keep bunched together.
The basic problem with the knockback is that the tank is generally not planning for it. Anything that causes things to act unpredictably puts melee and tanks in full on panic mode, be it fear or unasked for CC or extra groups being pulled. Reaction to change may be important for a good tank, but ideally they won't have to.
Scattering mobs to the four corners may not seem like a big deal, but it disrupts aggro generation of the tank, possibly wastes valuable cooldowns, means that the tank has to reposition himself with the mobs in a cone in front of him (because if the mob attacks from the side or back, all that fancy dodge and block and parry is gone and the tank takes a lot more damage and the healer has to work much harder with less of an aggro buffer to work with). On top of that, there's the potential for drawing other groups, patrols, and for moving a caster out of range of the tank so it can gleefully heal or spam damaging spells at will.
Your extra dps, your mana pool being less than full, your stubborn insistence on using a tool poorly, it's not worth potentially wiping the raid or group if the tank goes down.
slimj091 Nov 1st 2008 4:34AM
one boomkin? psh.. try running with three boomkins all spamming typhoon as soon as it was up. that was my heroic SL run last week, and it almost made me want to abstain from running with ANY balance druid ever again.
it's not so much that they used typhoon. it's that they constantly used it, and kept using it even when i politely asked them to stop. then again i guess one has to expect a bit of moroney in pugs. but still if your a boomkin, mage, or elemental shaman save that "having fun with knockback in heroic's" crap when you run with your friends.
BladeeR Nov 1st 2008 6:07AM
And once again QQ about WoW needing a brain to understand when not to use certain skills..
JDM Nov 1st 2008 7:42AM
That was my first impression when I grouped with a Shaman for the first time since the patch. It was a run through, a 70 Paladin taking us through Ramps on one of my alts, and the Shaman used the knockback move during one of the pulls. I think they were just playing around, and it caused no problems.
My first thought was laughter, "hey kinda cool". My second thought I voiced on Vent "I bet that move will piss off some tanks!"
But, IMO, as long as you know your party members or talk to them before hand and let them know NOT to use such moves during the instance/raid, you won't have any problems.