[UPDATED] Invincible vengeance no more
Retribution Paladins continue to take a beating. As much as Ghostcrawler tried to soften the blow in his post, there just isn't any nice way to go about this -- Blizzard is looking for a way to make Divine Shield and Avenging Wrath to be mutually exclusive once again. He says that the combination of both spells contribute to the impression that the spec is overpowered. Blizzard might do this through Forebearance, but says that they're also looking to reduce the duration of Forebearance through a hotfix. This means it's a pretty serious issue considering the duration of Forebearance was also intended to balance or space out the use of Divine Shield and Divine Protection. They have no timetable for the change, although it should be expected that it will be applied soon. Blizzard doesn't seem to hold back on nerfing the Paladin class, stating that "the last round of pretty severe nerfs didn't seem to do enough to Ret's dominance of PvP".
These are very fast reactions to nerf a spec that was "dominant" for all of a few weeks in a metagame that is tuned for Level 80. This is an extremely disappointing course of action in comparison to the complete absence of nerfs to Druids despite their utter dominance of the Arena format for three seasons (reducing Cyclone's range wasn't quite the solution, was it?). Paladin representation in Arenas went on sharp decline through all four seasons -- and this includes the Holy spec.
[UPDATE: The nerf has been applied on live realms. So much for the advanced warning Ghostcrawler was talking about. Avenging Wrath now causes Forebearance, and Forebearance's duration has been reduced to 2 minutes.]
While I don't care much for the mutual exclusivity -- I've always used Divine Shield defensively and am used to its function outside of Avenging Wrath through several seasons of Retribution PvP -- but the continuous nerfs to the spec and class are simply upsetting now. This is one more nerf to the one melee class without a true snare, spell interrupt, and counter to HoTs or healing. Ghostcrawler says that "the spec might need other tools to be viable in PvP," once its burst ability is taken away.
This is an interesting conclusion considering that the Retribution community has been asking for it for the longest time. We never asked for insane burst, although that was fun while it lasted. We wanted a true snare or a means to keep our enemies close. We wanted a spell interrupt or a means to stop or block heals. Blizzard has been extremely quick to nerf lately. I just hope that the utility changes come sooner rather than later. I don't want another 6 second Crusader Strike afterthought.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 13)
Nene Oct 31st 2008 11:53PM
OK, now they're just doing it to be assholes.
Damntheman Nov 1st 2008 1:32PM
Lol, silly pallies. And the comparison to druids is great. Druids dominated because they were the best option in a land with no "counter-escapes" (read: things like strangulation). Paladins are dominating now because they're just plain OP. The difference is that in seasons 1-4 if you played a druid poorly you sucked balls. Post 3.02 if you played a pally at all you won. Do you see the difference? Druids have a play-style that results in a steep skill-curve. Unfortunately paladins have a play-style that requires hardly any skill. A great paladin does the same thing and a terrible paladin. You knew it when you rolled on day 1. Being able to afk and make a sandwich while auto-attack took care of mobs was probably fun, well this is the cost.
Nene Nov 1st 2008 1:32PM
I was never able to auto-attack while making a sandwich. And Paladin has NEVER been OP enough to warrant the scorched earth-style of kneejerk panic nerfing that we're seeing now. It's gone past the point of reason straight into flailing appeasement of QQ and it has to stop.
Nice strawman, though.
Nick S Nov 1st 2008 1:49PM
Wait... Not being able to kill people as easily while *invulnerable* makes Paladins underpowered?
I'm just not in touch with the mentality I see in comments like these... Should Mages be able to cast Pyroblast from Ice Block? No! That's ridiculous!
The nerf happened for exactly the reason GC mentioned - other classes didn't enjoy being killed while their opponent was completely immune to their attempts at a response. Does that sound unreasonable?
trogdor7 Nov 1st 2008 12:21PM
Exactly, we shouldn't be able to kill people while invulnerable. This is just the wrong way to go about ensuring that. We can still do normal damage in our bubbles, just not 20% increased. If our burst is so ridiculously high, this doesn't even change anything. Just make it so wings triggers a short , 20 second debuff (the length of the spell) that makes it so we cant bubble during its duration. Make it a separate debuff from Forbearance. Or make it so when we're bubbled, we can't use Crusader Strike or Divine Storm. That seems like it would fix all the complaints to me.
The thing that irks me the most is that this is actually worse than before 3.0.2. It used to be that both bubble and wings triggered forbearance, and it lasted one minute. They changed it, because "they didn't want avenging wrath to take away use of our bubble". Now they've gone and completely undone that, and in fact made it worse. To me, this is almost more of PvE nerf than PvP. As Holy, I was just getting used to using wings on its cooldowns for the 20% increased healing. It didn't affect my bubble, so it was great! I could use it and still escape from mobs the tank wasn't generating threat on, or keep myself alive if something went horribly wrong. Now, not anymore. Similar thing goes for prot. Now that divine protection is basically Last Stand, they need to be able to use it at a moment's notice. They can't afford to use wings to up their threat gen at the start of a fight anymore.
TLDR: Blizz needs to come up with a better fix. What paladins are supposed to do is bubble and heal themselves, not bubble and YOU DIE NOW. There are better ways to ensure that than making avenging wrath completely worthless.
Carrub Nov 1st 2008 2:36PM
What happened to "balanced for 80"?
It also amazes me how for the last 2-3 arena seasons Druids have been dominant yet I think the biggest nerf they got was decreased range on Cyclone lol.
People don't like being killed while a paladin is invulnerable? Another thing people don't like is being cycloned while their partner gets eaten... Whats the only way out of cyclone again? Oh yea only a trinket.
andyjay220 Nov 1st 2008 3:27PM
Great, thanks for screwing over prot. Now I can't use my 50% damage reduction if I needed AW to build some extra threat.
This is getting out of hand. Everything they did to make the class fun is getting undone. Just nerf the damage into the ground and leave the abilities alone.
storment Nov 1st 2008 3:38PM
Add this to your UPDATE as well:
Two other "stealth" hotfixes went in: JoJ is now 10 seconds instead of 20 and Sanctified Wrath (ret talent) doesn't seem to ignore damage reduction affects any longer. PLUS, the Prot talent Divine Guardian is borked as well, causing the tank to continue to take the shared damage forever...this talent now spells immediate death to the tank. These changes are now live.
Looks like we got THREE hotfixes (I use "fix" loosely) for the price of one being announced and a terrible bug gimping prot tanks. Not to mention a pretty big nerf to Holy (no AW +healing w/ bubble), which is already struggling.
DoNotReply Nov 1st 2008 11:00PM
They should name this thread "One Thousand Tears of One Thousand Ret Pallys"
jefeweiss Nov 2nd 2008 11:13AM
I don't know too much about pally PvP issues, but when you bring druids into it you just show your ignorance.
The reason that Blizzard was pretty careful with nerfing resto druids is that resto druids were only really good in 2v2. They were ok in 3v3, but they were terrible in 5v5. If you look at the distribution of druids in the highest ranked teams in the three brackets, this is obvious. This is because a deep resto druid had only one form of defense and that was running away. In 5v5 the arena is too crowded for running away to be a viable solution to the problem of how to avoid being killed.
The reason that ret pallies are getting nerfed for pvp is that they are overpowered in pretty much every situation. Ret pallies are consistently doing twice the damage of the second top ranked class in battlegrounds. This is where they are supposed to be weakest due to the fact that they are susceptible to kiting. Heaven help people in the arenas.
Alkaios Oct 31st 2008 11:55PM
TO THE GROUND
Matazuma Nov 1st 2008 1:48AM
BABY!!!!!!
muhahahaha! Nov 1st 2008 3:52AM
And into a hole where the arena shaman and hunters sit playing cards knowing they aren't loved.
Bloodthorn Nov 1st 2008 6:17AM
the shammy part I understand, but not the hunter, I thought they raelly got a lot of love this time round.
unless its arena you speak of ofc...
Zerounit Nov 1st 2008 11:01AM
Oh, it's not just arena shamans...
Burgdorn Nov 1st 2008 12:10PM
Ok now really, I'm a retadin and I wouldn't say that. The ability to go into an arena and just facepalm a player with no options for them to fight back is broken. So I'm fine with it, really I am. I would say that we now have a slight weakness invested to how we can ever use Avenging Wrath again. Anytime in any match where I used Avenging Wrath meant instant snare or a quick quite death. I hope that can be fixed, but time will only tell.
Alkaios Nov 1st 2008 1:44PM
Haha I respecced from Holy to Ret recently, and ret is definitely OP...I just like to joke around =).
The fact still remains though, Blizz doesn't know what the heck to do with the Paladin class. I remember someone posted a comment on a different paladin article a week or two...they mentioned that Blizz is trying to get ret paladins to roll a DK. In all honesty, it's probably going to work. Why stick with a broken class, when you can pick up a DK and start over?
jim carey Nov 1st 2008 6:52PM
because maybe some of us like the play style of a paladin. i personally love it. i like melee dps but i dont like the warriors rage bar or rogue's energy and combo points. on the other hand, i love mana. mana + inyourface dps = paladin.
Retro Oct 31st 2008 11:58PM
As a long time Paladin, I have to agree. While other classes love to point the finger at our bubble, our heals, our Plate, and our emergency heal, they often overlook the fact that those are pretty much the only 'tools' we have. Every single one of them has multiple counters and none are effective for actually KILLING anything, just lasting longer while they continue to laugh at your DPS and continue killing you.
The reason people were upset with the state of Ret paladins lately wasn't because they were upset that a Pally wasn't a free kill, but because paladins have all of those fight prolonging abilities but also had the DPS to wreck people.
Blizzard's solutions have been fairly mediocre at best, and they still haven't seemed to grasp the concept of a 'hybrid' yet, despite all their claims to the contrary. Otherwise, Ret, Prot, and Holy would be viable.
Coldbear Nov 1st 2008 3:01AM
Cry more. You knew ___ well this was coming, and your post itself exposes you for the hypocrite you are.
Plate.
Heals.
Bubble.
Emergency Heal.
"...laugh at your DPS and continue killing you."
That's the bloody point. We don't continue to kill you through PLATE HEALS BUBBLE EMERGENCY HEAL.
Given equal gear, equal skill - sure, paladins were the laughing stock of WoW for a long time - but it took FORBLOODYEVER to kill one. And still does. I get destroyed in seconds all the time in pvp. You don't.
You bought survivability & support utility and you sold burst and long-term dps when you picked your spec & class. Then they screwed up something crazy and gave you mad burst dps. Not saying you shouldn't have had a buff, but that was just nuts after 3.0.2.
Just please keep in mind amid all your crying that the game needs to be balanced, and that doesn't mean that you should have it crazy easy compared to the rest of us.
Want to buy mad firepower and sell your
PLATE
HEALS
BUBBLE
EMERGENCY HEAL?
...roll a frost mage.
Just don't be a hypocrite, that's all.