Totem Talk: Elemental, my dear Watson
by Matthew Rossi 
Oct 31st 2008 at 4:00PM
So, what's the score with Elemental as a spec? Why, Mister Rossi, have you been so assiduously avoiding any discussion of it?Well, in part it's because I don't really like playing as an elemental shaman. It's a personal preference issue: when I'm DPS, I like to be up in mob faces, not standing back casting spells. My default spec for when I'm not enhancement is restoration, if only because I seem to be able to keep people alive fairly well with that spec and usually healing is at a premium. But I would have no difficulty in admitting that not only am I not particularly enthused with elemental (unlike Mike Schramm, one of our big elemental boosters) I'm also not very good at playing one. So speccing elemental this week and testing out the spec was to some degree like asking Wayne Gretsky to go figure skating: sure, the guy can skate, and skate well, but he's really not known for that particular kind of skating. Still, I did it, and I have to say that as is always the case when I do it I found the spec much less agonizing to play than I expected. It's actually pretty fun. (Yes, I use basically the same gear as I do when I go resto now, which means my crit sucks, but I'm not going to blow all my badges on elemental gear just to test the spec.)
The other and more serious reason I've held off from talking about elemental, however, is that a lot of shamans are very, very concerned about how well the tree is going to scale. Right now, as this WWS screenshot shows (names blurred to protect my guildmates) an elemental shaman can do well on an excursion to say, Black Temple (our #2 DPS was our elemental shaman, passed by a moonkin and ahead of a mage and hunter) but what about the future? Rather than try and repeat the work of others, let me introduce you to a couple of threads that cover the issue better than I would be able to. To attempt to summarize the complicated issue in an understandable way (and I mean understandable to me) - at 70 our gear and talents work as well, if not better, than they did before patch 3.0.2, but the concern is that as we move upward our DPS will increase at a slower pace than other DPS classes. Part of the concern is based on the fact that as an elemental shaman, you're more or less getting the same buffs you would from a raid through your talents and abilities like Elemental Oath (which, remember, doesn't stack with Moonkin Aura in the new scheme) so that in a raid you don't get the DPS boost other classes do, and part of it is based on the idea that shamans do not currently posses talents in their tree to increase scaling. Shamans do not gain spell power from intellect or spirit as other classes do, and they don't have a means to gain spell power via a talent that increases the way it multiplies.As I stated, at present this isn't a huge issue. We're not in level 80 gear, we don't have the full array of our Wrath talents and neither does anyone else. One of the reasons I avoided talking about this for so long is that there's no good way to do it that avoids the charge of meaningless complaint: as Ghostcrawler himself stated, everyone thinks their class is underpowered and everyone else is overpowered. But the fact is, I don't play elemental willingly, and even if it was the single most powerful DPS spec in the game, I wouldn't play it. I don't really enjoy it. I don't play mages, or warlocks, or boomkin druids, or shadow priests for a similar reason. I don't enjoy the role of ranged caster DPS. So I have no dog in this fight. If the class gains the scalability talents in the elemental tree that it would most likely need to keep parity with other casters, then I would not personally benefit from these talents. I would not take them.
I also don't want to leave the argument that shaman DPS will benefit from its new fire spells (Lava Burst) and new talents (Lava Flows) to increase fire damage, nor that shamans will benefit from debuffs like Curse of the Elements. While it's true that CoE will provide increased benefits for shamans, it will also provide those same benefits for every other caster, meaning that shaman DPS won't really be boosted by it proportionately. For purposes of Shaman DPS scaling vs other classes, it's a non-issue. Debuffs that primarily benefited elemental shamans like Stormstrike no longer do it only works for the enhancement shaman who cast it) meaning that elemental shamans have traded a 20% damage increase that mainly benefitted them for a 10% one that benefits everyone. Combine this with a reduction in the lightning spells coefficient which we've talked about before, and the lack of any talents that directly increase spell power scaling (which used to be contained in the Storm, Earth and Fire talent if you look over the comments) and you start to see the source of shaman concerns for Wrath. Elemental gets less from its talents and no special benefit from the debuff that is supposed to up our DPS to the point where our coefficients needed to be reduced, so the class loses ground as gear adds spell power to other classes via stats that don't directly benefit shamans in the same way.
This is the spec I took for a ride this week. You will find many flaws in it, because I don't PvP on the shaman and as such tried to go for pure damage abilities that didn't rely too much on the fire damage I don't do a lot of yet. (No Lava Burst = no Call of Flame) - I really like the new Thundering Strikes for elemental and if I were planning to stay elemental I would go over the spec again looking for a spare point to max it out. I found Thunderstorm to be as situational as I expected, but not nearly as bad - I used it almost every time it was up for mana regen alone and had fun on trash pulls with it, after making sure the tank had established enough aggro that sending several murlocs flying away from him wouldn't put them onto me.
To try and be fair, the spec feels (in the level of gear I have) strong at 70. I'm not doing as much damage as someone in full raid epics, but I don't feel weak at all, nor do I notice a huge decrease from the loss of Stormstrike or the decrease in coefficients. I throw a lot of Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings between Lightning Mastery, Lightning Overload and Storm, Earth and Fire reducing cast times, the cooldown on CL, and giving a chance fo a second bolt from LO, so at 70 I'd say the spec is still heavily nature damage oriented but I do find myself throwing more flame shocks now to take advantage of the increase periodic damage from SEF. I even decided to use Glyph of Flame Shock for that reason. Supposedly in patch 3.0.3 the glyph will be upgraded to keep Lava Burst from consuming Flame Shock, which would only be good. If I were PvPing more (at all, really) with the spec I might get Glyph of Frost Shock for the extra snare duration.
At present I'm using Glyph of Flametongue Weapon over Glyph of Lightning Bolt, which I considered. I just felt like the extra crit chance was more important than the 10% mana cost reduction. The only minor glyph I went looking for was the Glyph of Water Shield, as anything is better than nothing, but I really didn't get hit an awful lot to use up the extra orb. I picked up the Glyph of Ghost Wolf as a potential glyph in case I start PvPing, but haven't used it yet, because I haven't PvP'd at all as elemental.
In the end, I realize that elemental shamans will probably feel that I'm selling their issues short: please do go read the links to the official forums and Elitist Jerks I posted to start, as you'll get a much better sense of the exact issues and a whole lot of math if you're interested. Other caster DPS will probably write the whole thing off as a whine, which is unfortunate, as it really wasn't intended as one. While it is my personal belief that some/all of these issues could be fixed with a few simple tweaks (change SEF to add spell power from intellect, perhaps, or reduce the point cost on a few talents and use those points to include a new talent that used spirit or intellect as a scaling agent) I know not everyone will even agree that it is necessary to do so.
I don't want to play elemental. I never will. But that doesn't mean I don't want to see the tree keep parity with other ranged DPS, because I do. It may not be a spec I personally enjoy, but many other shamans do, and a lot of players who have yet to discover the class would most likely enjoy the playstyle. I don't want to see them hampered by elements that they can never overcome.
Next week, we're heading into the final stretch before Wrath: while there's probably not enough time to really cover all the possible gear from instances, reputation and crafting for all three specs, we'll at least look at some pieces you may want to put on your lists.
Filed under: Shaman, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Expansions, (Shaman) Totem Talk, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 4:20PM
"The other and more serious reason I've held off from talking about elemental, however, is that a lot of shamans are very, very concerned about how well the tree is going to scale. Right now, as this WWS screenshot shows (names blurred to protect my guildmates) an elemental shaman can do well on an excursion to say, Black Temple (our #2 DPS was our elemental shaman, passed by a moonkin and ahead of a mage and hunter) but what about the future?"
Sounds kinda like the crying of ret paladins when they were nerfed. Going forward, you're SUPPOSED to not scale as well as pure DPS classes. Because you're NOT one. The fact that two hybrid classes were on the top of the DPS meters is disturbing. At 80, that mage and hunter who were 3rd and 4th should be at the top. Not by a huge margin, but definitely at the top.
Now, if the scaling is so bad that you sit down there with the tanks and healers, that is a different issue, but there should be a noticeable gap at 80, with Mages, Hunters, Locks, and Rogues fighting it out for the top spot, and a "second tier" 5% behind those classes, where the Druids, Shamans, Paladins, Priests, Death knights, and Warriors fight it out.
If Shamans are always at the bottom of the second tier, there is a problem. Right now, there is no way to know, and complaining about scaling when no one has scaled yet is a bit premature.
Saelorn Oct 31st 2008 4:29PM
So nobody should bring a shadow priest to a progression raid? You make it sound like a hybrid class is only useful to deal damage in the case that you can't find an equally-geared "real" damage class.
Phoulmouth Oct 31st 2008 4:39PM
As blizzard has stated multiple times since the release of beta. All DPS specs in WotLK are supposed to be dead even. Meaning with even gear and even skill a elemental shammy should be within 1% of a hunter or mage. There is no more of this "Wah Wah Wah You're a hybrid I should out DPS you because I'm not a hybrid" crap. That boat has sailed buddy, so just stop.
I have played elemental since 2 months after BC released. I love the spec, it was a great change from the rogue I raided on preBC. But with all the changes they have made even unskilled scrubs can kick out the DPS we were doing pre3.0 and since 3.0 our DPS hasn't exactly jumped...... at all really. The fact that all elemental shammies now need to refit all there gear for hit rating thanks to blizzard taking most of our hit out of our talent tree alone is a slap in the face. But watching blue geared DPSers equal or beat the DPS of a fully epic'd character that previously topped DPS meters is enough to make me cry.
And DPS as enhance is just so amazingly easy now its rediculous. Previously enhance could toss out some pretty good numbers as long as you knew your class. But I respec'd enhance a little over a week ago and went into a pug gruuls and tossed out 2200 DPS in alt spec gear I took from our T6 raids that was gonna be DE'd.
Elemental shamans are in a truly sad state right now. I hope they look better at 80.
Angus Oct 31st 2008 4:44PM
Funny you should say that.
Beta forums showed Elemental just above tanks for DPS.
Warlocks were a full 50% higher. That's right, they scale so poorly the warlock could have been afk for half the fight and been equal in damage.
In fact every test they've done in the beta raids has shown elemental as a waste of a spot. All the buffs are covered by a moonkin or two. They can do AE damage and they can CC for real and not that crappy POS shaman were given.
As for the gap. BS. Pure classes now offer PLENTY of utility and raid buffs. CoE is a raid buff, candy, sould stones, and fel intelligence or blood pact round out the locks. Mages with divine intellect, scorch, biscuits (don't knock free food and water), that crit boost thing, and water elementals are pretty good for helping. Rogues don't bring very many buffs, but they do make bosses that heal annoyed, slow things, can CC in a pinch, and are going to have a threat tool unrivaled by anyone due to it boosting damage. Hunters have Unleashed rage or mana battery, other boosts to AP, and misdirect to control fights.
Every class brings plenty to the table. There should be no real noticeable gap. If rogues are 5% than other melee, serious raids will bring the minimum required to get the buffs and stack rogues. That simple. Same goes with the rest.
"Bring the player, not the class" should actually mean having classes/specs that lost almost all their unique buffs are doing equal damage to the classes that got them. It should not mean "Instead of 5 shaman you have maybe 1 or 0 if you bring a death knight." (GC quote there)
akw Oct 31st 2008 4:46PM
'As blizzard has stated multiple times since the release of beta. All DPS specs in WotLK are supposed to be dead even. Meaning with even gear and even skill a elemental shammy should be within 1% of a hunter or mage. There is no more of this "Wah Wah Wah You're a hybrid I should out DPS you because I'm not a hybrid" crap. That boat has sailed buddy, so just stop.'
You might want to tell that to Ghostcrawler:
'Pure classes should be able to out dps hybrid classes by a small margin. However, hybrid classes should be able to be a lot closer than they were in BC, and depending on the skill, gear and encounter involved, will sometimes beat the pure dps classes.
For purposes of this discussion, pure = mage, warlock, hunter, rogue. These are the classes that cannot spec into healing or tanking roles.
I don't want to get too far down into what that margin should be, because then players return with a WWS parse saying "See, the mage beat me. You said we would be competitive."'
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=12065190196&pageNo=1&sid=1#1
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 5:45PM
"So nobody should bring a shadow priest to a progression raid? You make it sound like a hybrid class is only useful to deal damage in the case that you can't find an equally-geared "real" damage class."
Is anything that you type ever intelligent? Read what I said. Never did I say you should only bring pure DPS classes. What i said was that Pure DPS classes should out-DPS hybrids by a small margin.
That said, if the only thing you care about is damage output, then no, you SHOULDN'T bring a shadow priest to a raid. Nobody is dumb enough to care solely about raw damage though.
"As blizzard has stated multiple times since the release of beta. All DPS specs in WotLK are supposed to be dead even. Meaning with even gear and even skill a elemental shammy should be within 1% of a hunter or mage. There is no more of this "Wah Wah Wah You're a hybrid I should out DPS you because I'm not a hybrid" crap. That boat has sailed buddy, so just stop."
Except they have actually said just the opposite. They have specifically said that even geared, even skilled Pure DPS classes should be able to out-DPS hybrids, just not by a huge margin. Might want to include the rest of the quote you use later to support your (wrong) claims.
"And DPS as enhance is just so amazingly easy now its rediculous. Previously enhance could toss out some pretty good numbers as long as you knew your class. But I respec'd enhance a little over a week ago and went into a pug gruuls and tossed out 2200 DPS in alt spec gear I took from our T6 raids that was gonna be DE'd."
That's funny, our enhancement shaman that is in BT/MH gear (no actual tier gear, just ilvl 141 stuff like it sounds like you have) and he did 2600 on Mag last night. I guess skill actually DOES come into play, huh?
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 5:46PM
@akw
Thank you for linking that. I couldn't remember where I found it when I responded. Anyone who still thinks that a class that can spec out of DPS should do the same DPS as a class that cannot should read that post very carefully.
Saelorn Oct 31st 2008 6:54PM
Watch the personal attacks. I stand by everything I've said, but I will admit when I'm wrong. I mostly deal in semantics.
I never argued that hybrid classes should or should not be used, or that they should or should not deal more or less damage than pure classes.
You said that hybrid classes should deal less damage than pure classes, so the logical extent is that they will not be used when you need to maximize raid DPS (progression raiding).
This is counter to the previously stated design goal, that you should bring your friends are those most skilled rather than the correct class. Yes, they have stated that they want pure classes to deal more damage. This is contradictory to their previously stated design goal.
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 8:41PM
"I mostly deal in semantics."
I know that. That's why your arguments are always full of fail. Rather than argue the point the person was making, you attack the words they used to make their point.
"You said that hybrid classes should deal less damage than pure classes, so the logical extent is that they will not be used when you need to maximize raid DPS (progression raiding)."
No, that is NOT the logical extent. The logical extent is that maximizing raid DPS is done by maximizing RAID DPS, not bringing in a lot of high DPS individuals. Bringing in someone who can throw an emergency heal to a DPS to keep them alive IS maximizing raid DPS. They just kept that rogue alive so he could DPS for the next 5 minutes of the fight.
A Ret pally that cleanses poisons maximizes raid DPS. A Moonkin that decurses maximizes raid DPS. A fury warrior that throws on a shield and grabs a stray mob that is about to rape a healer maximizes raid DPS. In case you hadn't figured it out yet, the single best way to maximize raid DPS is to KEEP EVERYONE ALIVE TO DPS. Hybrid classes are able to do that better than any DPS class. DPS classes simply yell out over vent that something needs to be done. If you bring 18 rogues to Archimonde, you're screwed.
THAT is why hybrids should do less damage. How much less? I don't know. That's hard to quantify. It should be enough to be noticeable, but not enough to be game-breaking. If you would get higher DPS by bringing a rogue and a healer instead of two DPS shamans, then something is broken. That is not how it stands right now, but we will see how it scales as we level.
And please, feel free to parse the language I have used and not argue the actual point. It's what you do best.
Saelorn Oct 31st 2008 9:56PM
Interesting theory, and I can't say your point is entirely invalid, but some people care a great deal about words, and take great offense at the abuse of grammar. People should say what they mean.
It was not necessarily obvious that your argument against strong hybrid DPS relied on some sort of "greater utility" to increase the damage output of others. This, again, goes against their stated design goal with standardizing the buffs and de-buffs to allow interchangeability of characters. An argument could be made that the pure damage classes, since they never had tanking or healing to fall back on, have always offered great utility (crowd control being the greatest example of this).
Angus Oct 31st 2008 10:53PM
"the single best way to maximize raid DPS is to KEEP EVERYONE ALIVE TO DPS. Hybrid classes are able to do that better than any DPS class. DPS classes simply yell out over vent that something needs to be done. If you bring 18 rogues to Archimonde, you're screwed."
Actually, a hunter can easily keep a healer or another DPS person alive. Mob breaking free due to healing aggro? Freezing trap them. Have tank taunt and then MD them to the tank to make sure.
Oh, that mob is going after the tank. Howl of terror if it is far enough away to not cause a problem, get tank to taunt it or fear it until the tank can.
Healer is in trouble? Blind, gouge, kidney shot, whatever it takes to stun the mob to stay off the healer. MD it to the tank and make the tank do more damage as you do that.
Healer in trouble. Frost nova in the path. Let tank grab it. Blast wave it back to the tank. Turn it into a freaking sheep.
So, which is better for keeping a person alive. Heals that can't come close to keeping the guy up, or a way to completely CONTROL the situation?
You don't bring 18 rogues to (insert name here) LK boss. You bring enough tanks to do it, enough healers, a moonkin specced to cover like half the buffs, and a ret paladin to cover the other half. After that, bring locks, mages and rogues a plenty along with some hunters. Enhance? Nah, we got a DK. Elemental, nah, we got a moonkin. More than 1 ret? Nah, 2 paladins is more than enough and the 2 resto shaman cover bloodlust.
I don't know about your raids, but the pure classes in mine are usually solving problems, not expecting the hybrids to deal with them. Only hybrid that was a go to guy in my guild when it was running MH and BT was the guy everyone trusted to know how to fix situations instantly. It wasn't the class, it was the player.
He quit playing his hybrid. No point. He can do much better with a different class that isn't gimped to hell and told they need to be 2nd class citizens because they have a heal button they use as often as a healthstone.
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 11:55PM
"It was not necessarily obvious that your argument against strong hybrid DPS relied on some sort of "greater utility" to increase the damage output of others."
Actually, it was perfectly obvious, even to you. Which is why you responded with:
"So nobody should bring a shadow priest to a progression raid?"
Bringing up a class whose DPS is drastically gimped in order to provide a (previously) essential raid utility shows that you knew utility was exactly what I was talking about. Again, continue with your semantics if it makes you feel smart.
"Enhance? Nah, we got a DK. Elemental, nah, we got a moonkin. More than 1 ret? Nah, 2 paladins is more than enough and the 2 resto shaman cover bloodlust."
I love how you're replacing hybrid classes with OTHER HYBRID CLASSES in order to make your point about not bringing those classes to the raid.
NEWS FLASH: In World of Warcraft, there are only 25 raid slots for 30 different talent specs! The world is reeling with the implications that 7 shamans might not be needed after all. Film at 11.
You bring up all these complicated ways for non-hybrids to handle problems in the raid. of course they can. Any class can handle a problem if they know how to play their class. That doesn't mean it's easy for them.
"Actually, a hunter can easily keep a healer or another DPS person alive. Mob breaking free due to healing aggro? Freezing trap them. Have tank taunt and then MD them to the tank to make sure.
Oh, that mob is going after the tank. Howl of terror if it is far enough away to not cause a problem, get tank to taunt it or fear it until the tank can.
Healer is in trouble? Blind, gouge, kidney shot, whatever it takes to stun the mob to stay off the healer. MD it to the tank and make the tank do more damage as you do that.
Healer in trouble. Frost nova in the path. Let tank grab it. Blast wave it back to the tank. Turn it into a freaking sheep."
Do you not notice that in every one of those scenarios, you are involving more than one person? "Stun it long enough for the tank to fix things" "Trap it and MD until the tank can fix things" "Sheep it until the tank can fix things" "Fear it until the hunter can MD it to the tank so he can fix things"
Shaman: That mob is going after someone. Without relying on any aggro-changing skills or having the tank change anything at all, I will simply stop DPS and heal the person the mob is going after. I can continue to do this until the fight is over if necessary.
Paladin: That mob is going after someone. I have two options that don't require the tank to do anything at all. I can heal this person through the entire fight if necessary. I can throw on a shield, pop righteous fury and tank this mob through the entire fight if necessary.
DPS Warrior: That mob is going after someone. I can throw on a shield, pop defensive stance and tank this mob through the entire fight if necessary.
Moonkin: That mob is going after someone. I have two options that don't require the tank to do anything at all. I can heal this person through the entire fight if necessary. I can go bear form and tank this mob through the entire fight if necessary.
Shadow Priest : That mob is going after someone. I will simply stop DPS, drop shadow form, and heal the person the mob is going after. I can continue to do this until the fight is over if necessary.
Death Knight: That mob is going after someone. I can death grip the mob over to me and tank it through the entire fight if necessary.
None of these solutions involve using skills that are resistable or worry about traps breaking or sheep breaking or the tank not responding in time or whatever. These solutions are the HYBRID class acting like a HYBRID. They're not switching up what spells they use. They're switching their ENTIRE ROLE in the fight. I don't care how much you argue it, a mage is not going to tank a mob that broke loose. A warlock is not going to heal someone who is getting beat on by a mob. The best pure DPS classes can do is buy time and delay the problem. Hybrid classes have the option to SOLVE the problem.
When mages are able to spec into tanking or healing trees, they will nerf their DPS accordingly. Until then, accept the fact that being able to completely change your role at the drop of a hat is worth a 5% DPS penalty.
It seems to me that the only people complaining that they are having to sacrifice a small percentage of DPS for better raid utility are the people afraid they are going to lose their job.
If you're afraid the moonkin is going to take your DPS spot because he provides your same buff and out-DPSes you, I say you need to learn to DPS harder. If a mage in blues is out DPSing a well-played, well-geared elemental shaman, that is a different case, and it is broken and should be fixed. But no one has hit those situations yet. For every WWS parse of an elemental shaman at the bottom of the charts, you can find another where they are at the top.
You folks need to remember that arguing about scaling at this point (even on the beta servers) is like arguing about people in Kara gear right now. The real tests for scaling haven't even started, we're only theorycrafting at this point. When REAL data start coming in, we can talk about scaling issues. For now you should be less worried about what things will be like when we are raiding Icecrown and a little more concerned about not getting kicked from groups at 75 because you don't understand the unbelievable utility your class can bring to a group.
Scaramanja Oct 31st 2008 4:30PM
Glyph of Water Mastery is good for anyone, every Shaman should probably make a space for it, especially Resto and Elemental though.
Mike Schramm Oct 31st 2008 4:31PM
I don't know if I'm a booster. But I guess that if I play with my Shaman through Wrath, it'll be as an Elemental Shammy, so I guess that's boostery.
Axlrose Oct 31st 2008 4:33PM
WWS doesn't show up for me. Not that it's a huge deal, but you felt inclined to include it, so I thought I'd let you know.
Axlrose Oct 31st 2008 4:38PM
Oops, shouldn't have replied to Mike's post.
Optimuze Oct 31st 2008 4:38PM
I agree that if the DPS is down with the Tanks and Healers some changes need made, and I don't think you will find many that disagree with you about that.
He made this point many times in his article.
"If Shamans are always at the bottom of the second tier, there is a problem. Right now, there is no way to know, and complaining about scaling when no one has scaled yet is a bit premature."
Robert M Oct 31st 2008 4:40PM
"So speccing elemental this week and testing out the spec was to some degree like asking Wayne Gretsky to go figure skating: sure, the guy can skate, and skate well, but he's really not known for that particular kind of skating."
/stumble
TOEPICK!
Heilig Oct 31st 2008 5:47PM
LOL
What a terrible movie. Is it worse that you quoted it or that I recognized it?
Robert M Oct 31st 2008 5:54PM
I think the important thing is that we are equally embarassed.