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11-05-2008 @ 2:12PM
For most raiders, this will be a great thing. You can take whomever you have to a raid and everything will be just hunkydory.For progression raiders, who will evaluate every situation, this will really make some changes. Instead of needing 20/25 people to fill raid buffs, you can now complete the best possible raid makeup with 11. Yes, getting to the optimal raid sooner will make things easier for a raid leader. However, the remaining will be selected on the min/max, which is nothing more than who will give the best numbers. If one class gets as little as a 5% advantage over anyone else, you can replace that class 10 times over.For example, if a Retribution Paladin is 5% behind a rogue on DPS for an undead boss, you can logically see a 10-15% fall on a non-undead. If you have all of the raid boosts that Paladin can offer already accounted for, your raid just gained the difference by sitting that Paladin. Now, for the people this will be the worst... the guilds between casual and hardcore progression. Those who have a loyal core but not necessarily the best. Pre-3.0 there was a lot of flexibility, "raid boost" was always behind the scenes and mostly intangible. Now, if someone falls behind they will have to be replaced. This will tear up these mid-road guilds, they want to be loyal to their friends but at the same time they will have nothing but cold hard numbers making the decisions for them. Without that balance the people at the top of the pole leave sooner, the people at the bottom of the pole get yelled at more often, its a less pleasant raiding experience all around.
11-05-2008 @ 2:39PM
Blizzard has stated they have no intention of adding Sunwell-difficulty raids that require min-maxing. I imagine the most hardcore guilds will find raiding in Wrath woefully easy, since the only constraints before was finding players that did not exist.
11-05-2008 @ 2:42PM
You're completely ignoring the benfits of redundancy if certain players go down during a fight. Executed perfectly? Yeah bring raw dps classes if you have all the buffs/debuffs covered.When your lone shadow priest takes a dirt nap, have fun with mana. Yeah, no need for that ret pally or survival hunter then, amirite?
11-05-2008 @ 2:44PM
I love how everyone just assumes that progression raiders are mindless robots that only care about raw DPS and nothing else.A) Hybrids only sit back and do nothing but DPS AFTER the fight is on farm. During the learning process, they are off-healing, cleansing, CCing, off-tanking, basically doing the things that make them hybrids. Progression raid leaders LOVE hybrids because they are the ones that can turn a wipe around with a well-timed Battle rez.B) Raiders are human too. We don't go recruiting the highest DPS warrior on the server if he's a rude, arrogant, moron. We bring our friends too. It jsut so happens that most of our friends are good players too. That's kinda what drew us together and made us friends in the first place.C) The number of progression fights that are tuned so tightly that a 5% raid DPS increase is the difference between success and failure is really minimal. Most raid fights are about execution, not DPS. Brutallus and patchwerk jump to mind, and that's really all I can think of off the top of my head.
11-05-2008 @ 4:26PM
I'm in one of those guilds and BC was brutal on it. I don't see at all where you're coming from. There are those that can and cannot handle progression. The guilds you are describing will likely (and should) give up 25 man raiding for 10 man content. 15 people with alts == Two 10 man raiding groups composed of largely the same group of people and subs based on things like RL scheduling.The kind of guild you're describing had no business in the 25 man game in the first place. Sry, been there, done that, got the new tabard for my efforts. Now I'm thanking Blizzard for giving us a better option.Ta,
11-05-2008 @ 3:02PM
Bah! I completely disagree with those of you happy with making every class the same. To make my point using an extreme: A typical warrior class player wants to be up close and hitting things. A mage class knows not to "get to close" to the fight and plays at range. Personalities choose classes that fit. If (again to exaggerate) A mage can tank and a tank can fight at range both just as effectively, WHY HAVE ANY CLASSES AT ALL??? Why have any skills that are any different. Just cookie cutter out 15 Skills that everyone uses regardless of their "Class - i.e. their now just their look in the game) and then.... as many of you are putting it... It's all about skills not class.I think this KILLS one of the unique characteristics of WoW and disenfranchises tons of players that USED TO like their class. If I as a shadow preist wanted to be a huge DPSer I would get on my already made lock. Why the #@$% are they turning my Shadow Preist into a lock???? Why are there 4 Tank classes? With this thinking why not have all classes tank, why not have 1 talent tree for all classes.I hate this change. It's lame.
11-05-2008 @ 4:25PM
Sorry, but to deny that these considerations will not take place is a fallacy. Do you think that progression raids had 5-6 shaman on a raid because of what swell people those shaman had at the keyboard? Go look at first kills in sunwell and you'll see fights with zero druids and Retribution Paladins while you have multiple shaman. To say that redundancy at roles is necessary, I ask, how many backup tanks you see on any progression raid? Surely if someone as important as a shadowpriest needs a replacement for a raid then having a spare tank should be vital for every raid.Sorry, but that's not how things are. You take what you absolutely must have in the way of tanks, healers and raid buffers and fill the rest of the raid with the most you can crank out. You take the fewest tanks you can, the best you can use so you can take the fewest number of healers. Hell, if you look at the first kills of Twins you'll see that the progression minded people sat all their melee to allow for fewer healers. Here's a link to an article here on WowInsider:http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/04/10/nihilum-does-it-again-downs-twin-eredars/2#c11569429Progression minded people will do whatever it takes to get whatever advantage they can get. When it meant farming mats for resist gears, they got it. When it meant dropping and picking up new tradeskills, they did it. When it meant sitting people and bringing others, they did it. And... they will continue to do it. Those who settle for good enough come in second.
11-05-2008 @ 9:28PM
That's a great argument you're making. just one problem.We're not playing the same game anymore. Most of the reasons for stacking locks and shamans are gone. Not that I mean they're not necessary, I mean they don't even work.Blizzard has changed the paradigm, and you are fully able to just bring good players now instead of specific buffs.
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