Ask a Lore Nerd: Yogg-Saron and Warchief Garrosh Hellscream
by Alex Ziebart 
Nov 17th 2008 at 2:00PM
Welcome to Ask a Lore Nerd, where each week blogger and columnist Alex Ziebart answers your questions about the lore and history of the World of Warcraft. Ask your questions in the comments section below, and we'll try to answer it in a future edition.
Wrath of the Lich King is finally here, and with it comes a whole load of new lore and stories to discover. I hope you guys are reading your quest text! I imagine all of these new quests will bring up a lot of new questions as well, and to that I say bring it on. For now, though, let's field some questions from last week.
Rosa asked...
Personally, I'm tired of Outland and demons and fantasy-tech and I'm glad to see Warcraft going gothic again, buuuut there's one thing that I love about Outland and I'm hoping it's not gone forever. Ethereals are, like, totally awesome, and my favourite unplayable race in WoW. The question I have is, do we see these guys anywhere in Wrath? And if not, do you think that we'll see them ever again?
They're in Wrath but in a very, very limited capacity. It's not the Consortium either, it's the Ethereum. I really liked the ethereals too, so I'm kind of sad they didn't come to Northrend en masse. At least one Ethereal town would've been neat. It's about time the Goblins had some real competition. Cooler, classier, smarter competition. Hell, let's just trade out the Steamwheedle Cartel for the Consortium. Sounds good to me.
Wolly asked...
Just how much Old God love are we going to see in the expansion? They've got to be one of the most compelling forces at work in the WoW universe and it'd be a real treat to see Yogg-Saron manipulating the scenes against the good guys and Arthas.
Yogg-Saron is an everpresent... presence. You feel his influence all over Northrend, and his ties are everywhere. Despite that, he somehow manages to be a little more behind-the-scenes. The Scourge is up in your face and at the top of your mind, but Yogg-Saron's influence is always right there. Those of you with tradeskills that involve using metals, you've been directly exposed to Yogg-Saron. It's called Saronite for a reason. I imagine he'll be a more direct threat once he's actually in-game in whatever raid zone is on the horizon, but right now it's primarily a "presence" and not an "oh shi-" kind of thing.
I very highly recommend running Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom as soon as you're high enough level. Not only is it just a beautiful instance, it's a good look at what the Nerubians were, have become, and at what lies beneath the kingdom. Plus, the last boss is the most awesome 5-man boss I've ever seen. Seriously. Go do it.
Sesquame said...
I was working on the exploration achievements when ( came across an island in Hillsbrad named "Purgation Isle" with level 58 elite undead. Any lore on it?
Nope, not really. It's a neat place so that's kind of a shame, but there's really nothing specific about it. It was populated with elites for the quest chain at level 60 that upgraded your dungeon tier set. You just kill the dudes and loot their junk. We can make guesses as to what's there, but that doesn't make it canon, you know? Maybe it was a little abbey, or a special little graveyard, or maybe an ice cream parlor.
Javierkaiser said...
What about the duel between Thrall and Garrosh? Why are they fighting?
Thrall is kind of a wuss and is often to slow to act. Garrosh is a jerk and doesn't think at all before he acts. Garrosh got annoyed with Thrall's hesitation to send troops to Northrend, Thrall wouldn't budge on the issue until they thought it over, Garrosh challenges Thrall's authority and drags him into a duel over it. It's just the result of the massive mess that is current Orcish society.
aw232 said...
In the Pre-Wrath Event Thrall loses to Garrosh Hellscream in a fight in front of high ranking members of the horde. What does this mean in terms of political standing and succession in the horde? If Garrosh had killed Thrall would Garrosh been the new warchief? How do politics work in the Horde?
Technically Thrall didn't lose, the duel was interrupted by the Scourge. He probably was going to lose, though. In the New Horde, we can't really be sure what would happen. In the Old Horde, Garrosh would most probably become the new Warchief. In the New Horde, while Garrosh as Warchief would get a lot of support from a portion of the Orcs, it'd probably cause a civil war or schism in the Horde. People like Saurfang would not tolerate that nonsense, but there are still a lot of Orcs that long for the days of old when they could just slaughter things for a living.
I doubt Sylvanas, the Blood Elves, et cetera would be happy about Garrosh as Warchief, either. Hell, if Garrosh killed Thrall, Saurfang might just Mortal Strike him into a fine mist before he could even try to claim Warchief. We can't really say for sure. The Horde's entire society is screwed up right now. Considering Thrall keeps people like Nazgrel around as his advisors, maybe the Horde wouldn't have blinked at all and welcomed their warlord with open arms.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King, Ask a Lore Nerd
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
datarez Nov 17th 2008 9:50PM
There are definitely some anti-Garrosh story bits going on in B. Tundra and Dragonblight. I think the note you can receive in Agmar's Hammer is the best hint of civil war that I've seen so far.
Steve Nov 17th 2008 7:52AM
I've wanted to know- how exactly do you kill an Undead? Can they bleed to death? Do they have blood? Or do you have to kind of hack them apart until their pieces can't fight back? What can you tell me about the physiology of the Forsaken/Undead/Scourge?
Kraas Nov 17th 2008 2:53PM
"AIM FOR THE HEA-"
MacGyver Nov 17th 2008 3:35PM
Look at all those replies below.
Ahh, there's nothing more fragile than the ego of a Horde player. Twisting and blocking events is also a grand part of that ego..
Stormscape Nov 17th 2008 4:17PM
"...removing the head or destroying the brain..."
Odok Nov 17th 2008 7:54AM
Geez, what's with the orc hate? Thrall isn't a wuss, he's just stoic and diplomatic... something the orcs could really use right now. Granted he won't fight unless there's no other option, but when it is time to bring the pain, he doesn't hold back (re: battle for undercity).
Anyways... in the old horde, whoever killed the warchief became the new one. That's how doomhammer got it from blackhand. However, Thrall became the warchief of the new horde when doomhammer passed it on to him as he died. So, I would assume that in the new horde it would work the same - Thrall would pass on the mantle. Though, orcs value strength. If Thrall was defeated or shamed in front of his people, he'd be forced to bow to whomever defeated him. He's still in charge, he just got vetoed on that action =P Hence why Garrosh is the leader in northrend.
DandalfTheWhite Nov 17th 2008 2:16PM
Nice post.
I have a quick question... I could not find the answer on WoWWiki so I don't know if the answer even exists in lore. I play a boomkin druid and looking at the WoWWiki Druid Organizations page I could not find the order that my Moonkin would have been part of before they reformed into the Cenarion Circle. I ask mainly because of a comment made by Morthis Whisperwing in the Swift Flight Form quest line:
"Though the Druids of the Talon are no longer a formal group, I shall remain one to the last of my days."
With all that being said, do balance druids have a known order within lore? Thanks! :)
Bobbo Nov 17th 2008 2:55PM
This is a pretty good start on moonkin/wildkin lore as related to druids. http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=4901 Not really sure if moonkin would fall within an order, per se, but the quest dialog in this Winterspring quest (scroll down a bit on that page) gives a general background of the *kin in general, so it's a start.
Kymali Nov 18th 2008 5:59AM
If you look at the spells from Warcraft3 balance druids seem to be a mix of druids of the talon and the hero unit Keeper of the Grove. If we're grounded Druids of the Talon it makes sense that our form is basically a big bird form. :)
skreeran Nov 17th 2008 2:38PM
I love Saurfang.
Yes, I know it's not exactly the most original thing, but he really is a great guy. He's the only Orc I've ever seen even acknowledging the genocide of the Draenei. Sure, it's nowhere near the formal apology letter I'm secretly hoping for, but it's better than most Orcs who seem to be either ignoring it, or justifying it with something similar to "They were weak. Their death was inevitable."
Anyway, I see him as an almost Gandalf-like figure, who stands back and guides the new generation, but when the time arises, goes to kick some ass himself.
Anyway, onto my actual question. What kind of actual evidence is there of Saurfang's power-level (which I believe is over 9000). In other words, canonically, just how powerful is Saurfang?
Matthew Rossi Nov 17th 2008 3:08PM
There is a quest in Borean Tundra where Saurfang shows you just how powerful he really is. Let's just say he annihilates a powerful Scourge necromancer and easily ten to twenty minions in about two minutes. This isn't speculation, this is the sequence as it unfolds in game.
Now, when the quest bugs and you have to fight JUST that necromancer, not even his undead swarm (he doesn't spawn them without Saurfang present) it takes a T6 geared party of three about six minutes to kill him solo.
skreeran Nov 17th 2008 3:11PM
Ah... Yes... Now the question is, could Garrosh do the same? :P
He did get a boss with 5 million health down to about half.... :P
I want Saurfang to whip some sense into Garrosh.
Jenny Nov 17th 2008 2:45PM
My guild was having a discussion the other day: Are death knights dead? Undead? Alive? Reanimated? What about Arthas? Did fusing with the Lich King "kill" him?
Xtian Nov 17th 2008 3:00PM
My guess is that this sort of lore will be revealed in a cut-scene or scripted event. Guilds will have to utter magic words to unlock it: "Okay guys, this is the last attempt of the night. Rebuff, watch the aggro on phase two, and don't f-ing stand in the f-ing fire."
J. A. S. Nov 17th 2008 5:09PM
Death Knights, based on the literature strewn around the Ebon Keep, are undead. They're just able to keep their good looks because they're stronger than level 1 forsaken, and because Blizzard's artists didn't want to put in the work. And just like Sylvanas redeemed the forsaken and restored their connection to the light, all deathknights were redeemed by Tirion at the end of their quest chain.
Lemons Nov 17th 2008 7:24PM
Hold the phone...
"And just like Sylvanas redeemed the forsaken and restored their connection to the light..."
When did this happen? Is there anywhere I can read more about this?
J. A. S. Nov 17th 2008 11:08PM
I have no idea when this happened or the particulars of it, but that's what the dragons say as explination for why the forsaken aren't smited in the presence of Ysera or upon entering the Emerald Dream, like scourge are.
Wulfkin Nov 18th 2008 4:38AM
Whilst Ebon Hold Death Knights were all killed and then returned as undead, Arthas is a more complicated question. Taking up Frostmourne cost him his soul but he never physically *died*. Merging with the Lich King also didn't seem to damage his physical body, it was more of a spiritual / mental fusing.
That said, what qualifies as undead is more open question than you might expect. For example, undead Nerubians seem to be able to lay eggs that create more "scourgified" Nerubians. Similarly there are fauna and flora affected by the Lordaeron Plague that did not die, but still became twisted to serve the Scourge. Therefore we could maybe say that undeath (at least the Scourge version) is a state of death-like immortality, rather than only meaning those creatures with have died and been reanimated.
Caithris Nov 18th 2008 11:20AM
Based off how Arthas became a death knight and the "new" DK lore in WarIII and frozen throne, I'm pretty sure that death knights are not Undead per-se, but rather have undergone a transformation.
Point: frost spec DKs have the ability Lichborne that causes you to "become" undead.
Counterpoint: the death knight intro says you died.
I'd like to see the official answer to this as well.
Kraas Nov 17th 2008 2:53PM
I highly doubt that Thrall was doing anything but holding back. I mean, he obviously didn't want to fight Garrosh, and he's not the type to instantly smack down anything who criticizes him (which is the mark of a good leader, but he shouldn't let that make him too indecisive...). Regarding Saurfang's power, have you ever seen the guy in action? At one time he had a counterattack that would hit for 10k+ damage to anything that landed a critical hit on him (not sure if it's still in place, because of his current position in Warsong Hold it would be harder to test). Anyway, Saurfang is the consummate Orc Warrior of the New Horde: mindful of the mistakes of the past, not hungry for power, but fearless and resolute in battle.