Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The latest patch 5.4 newsThe Queue: Wrath's current raids and their difficulty
by Alex Ziebart 
Nov 18th 2008 at 11:00AM
Today's edition of The Queue is a little raid-centric with a heavy splash of opinion, just as a warning, starting with kevin's question...
There are currently only four raids in Wrath: Vault of Archavon, Naxx, The Obsidian Sanctum, and The Eye of Eternity. Later on Icecrown Citadel. Is that all? What other raids are to be include into Wrath?
Blizzard has laid out the basic framework of their next few content patches for us, so we know a little bit. Patch 3.1 will bring us Ulduar, a raid in Storm Peaks using the Titan motif. Patch 3.2 will contain a new raid instance, but Blizzard hasn't announced what it is. My money is this raid will take place beneath Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'kahet and focus on Yogg-Saron and the Faceless Ones. Patch 3.4 will, most likely, contain the Icecrown raid, and that will have brought us full circle on Wrath of the Lich King and prepare us for the next expansion. Sunwell Plateau was in 2.4, so it makes sense.
RMCEACHI said...
What's going on with Shadowmeld? Is it broken?
I have no idea what you mean, you're going to have to be a little more specific. Every Night Elf I asked about a Shadowmeld bug didn't know of one, and are really excited about the ability. A racial Vanish when you're out questing is pretty freaking awesome.
Omnishinzui said...
People have been saying Naxx is easier then Kara when it first came out. Can you or someone compare the two? Is it easy as kara after the 3.0.2 hit or is it just not like what Zul'aman was where you had to wipe about 10x before getting the entire raid to understand how to survive a boss fight (pre-3.0.2 patch)?
The best comparison I can come up with is that 10-man Naxxramas is a lot less like Karazhan and a lot more like UBRS, if you're old school enough to remember that place. It's not really a raid so much as a 10-man dungeon, if that makes any sense at all. The bosses have their gimmicks, but you hardly need finesse or team coordination to pull them off. You can blunder through it with a PUG, and you don't need to really gear for it at all. Are you level 80? You can kill Kel'thuzad with 9 level 80 friends.
I really think they're all a little too easy. I completely agree that the intro raids in The Burning Crusade were too hard in the beginning, but they swung around to the other extreme. That's not much better. If you could still zone into raid instances before top level like you used to be able to do, I have no doubt level 78s would be clearing the places. The Obsidian Sanctum is the first raid that will pose any challenge, and that will be with 3 drakes up, the 'hard mode' of the raid.
This is all made worse by the fact that... if you were a high-end raider before, you're probably really good at learning/following strategies and adapting to things going to hell. Raiding does hone your PvE skill, whether people like to admit it or not. If you're going from something like Black Temple or Sunwell... or even Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine, going into Naxxramas is a massive step backwards in difficulty. That's how it should be for new players, but it's jarring for everyone else. The new Naxxramas is perfect for people who have absolutely never stepped into a raid before in their entire lives, but I'm willing to bet that most people who plan to do Naxxramas have done at least a little raiding in The Burning Crusade and this content will be rendered trivial. A little challenge would have been nice. I don't think anybody expected it to be a step up from Sunwell Plateau, but we also didn't expect the new raids to be done in PUGs with greens. That's too much.
Players are going to run out of raid/dungeon content really, really fast early on, especially those people that play specifically for that. Patch 3.1 is going to need to arrive fairly quickly, and I hope Ulduar is more of a challenge.
Patch 3.1 brings us Ulduar, dual specs, significant changes to all the classes, and more! We've got you covered from top to bottom with our Guide to Patch 3.1.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 8)
Verit Nov 18th 2008 1:49PM
Actually when you come out of shadowmeld the game returns you to full threat.
Its not even a fade - because if you have agro and you use sm, and get hit - it won't help ;).
Nublet Nov 18th 2008 6:38PM
Speaking about druids and shadowmeld...
Shadowmeld pops you outta combat leaving you open to Flight form, u might have to click fast but it can work even if ya have dots on ya. I'm ungankable! Well, once i can fly again....
Carang of Kargath Nov 18th 2008 11:12AM
My question is about the STV fishing contest. If someone turns in the 40 fish to win, can you still fish for the rare fish to turn in?
Also has anyone heard who was the first lvl 80 in the US?
cjshrader Nov 18th 2008 11:21AM
The fishing tournament lasts for a few hours, so yes you can keep fishing all you want even after a winner has been declared, then turn in all those extra fish for a little extra cash.
meatyshield Nov 18th 2008 11:25AM
To answer ur question about the STV fishing event, yes, you can still fish the rares even though someone has finished the competition, as long as there are still schools to fish from. However, you have to turn in the fish before 5 pm server time in order to get the items for them.
Aler Nov 18th 2008 11:15AM
The apparent ease of the raids can be misleading. Sure, the intro raids have been completed by the top guild, but that's just the start.
If you look at the achievements, you see where the true challenges lie. There are achievements for finishing a raid with only 8 or 20 people, or killing a boss without killing the adds, or killing a boss within a time limit, or not using a specific ability, and so forth...
I like this approach - it lets us ordinary folk have a chance to see the raid content, while giving the hard core players additional challenges to show off their power.
Aler Nov 18th 2008 11:16AM
For reference, here are the heroic dungeon achivements: http://www.wowhead.com/?achievements=14921
And the heroic raid achievements: http://www.wowhead.com/?achievements=14923
amasen Nov 18th 2008 11:35AM
Your telling me you never got to experience Kara because it was too hard? How about ZA?
My core 10man raid group beat ZA in Badge loot and kara gear (all 4 timers). It wasn't hard and it did not take us very long.
25mans were not hard when it came to the challenge of the fights. The challenge was getting 25 competent people into the same raid at the same time and coordinating them all. That was what wrath was supposed to bring to the table 10 and 25man content for all. Instead the content is just incredibly easy and now anyone with the mind to pug the content will get to see it.
GrayElf Nov 18th 2008 7:18PM
To my great disgust, I have to agree with you.
Blizz has fairly obviously replaced "real" raids/content with achievements. Ok, we still have 3-4 more raids on the way, and maybe this will be a wake-up call to them...but as things stand, every Guild with skilled players who make an effort will clear all the current raids within a matter of a few months. Not the best - EVERYONE who really tries.
And then we wander around doing Azeroth quests for that Loremaster achievement, and exploring the little nooks and crannies we missed...
Accessible is one thing. Dumbing things down so that there's no point unless you you're a new player is just stupid. Maybe 3.0.4 will "fix" the current raids?
hawk88 Nov 18th 2008 11:15AM
You only get the threat back if the enemy is still in combat.
Sciencegeek Nov 18th 2008 11:29AM
This does not happen according to my testing pre-WotLK and post expansion. Threat is dropped completely and you are removed from combat completely. In its current form, it works wonders for exploring, i.e. ride into a zone above your level, find herb/node of your choosing, Shadowmeld to drop agro/leave combat, herb/mine and continue on your way.
LaVache Nov 18th 2008 11:52AM
Just to help clarify, you will regain aggro if you are not the only person in the mob's threat list. If you are the only one with aggro (i.e. soloing, or last player on a wipe, etc.) You will completely drop aggro when you SM.
Agelamer Nov 18th 2008 12:29PM
@ LaVache
That is the way it supposed to work, but it currently acts as a total threat wipe. In a 5-man instance, I can use it on a boss and reset aggro. Better yet, it takes me completely out of combat allowing me to eat/drink/rez, all while the boss fight is going on around me.
pretty big bug tbh
Akhilesh Nov 18th 2008 11:15AM
Interesting, I dont think its too terrible that the raids are easier, if anything it will get more people hooked into raiding which in the long haul is great.
Will Nov 18th 2008 11:17AM
It sounds like Naxx will be a little bit easier from a team coordination standpoint than Kara was and this excites me.
While I am all for teamwork and coming up with strategies, I think the difficulty of Kara as the first 10man content threw a lot of people off from progressing and getting further in raids.
Naxx will be a nice step on the ladder to get the majority of average players involved in end game content.
http://www.wowconfidential.com
Khanmora Nov 18th 2008 12:35PM
I agree, and I think a lot of people missed the UBRS kind of feeling in TBC. It was fun because you could take anyone and it was a good intro for them without them feeling overwhelmed by one mis-step wiping the raid.
marla Nov 18th 2008 1:50PM
I'm all for raids that are more accessible. I have alot of guildies who may not be the best PLAYERS but who are cool and who I'd love to take on raids. If the raids are tuned such that we can take one (maybe two) less-skilled players in with our regular core group, I'll be a happy clam (as will my guild leader, I suspect).
Ricket Nov 18th 2008 11:20AM
Its more about the speed in which players will get through the content aurorallew. I mean if it only takes 1 month to get through all the raid instances, what are the raiders going to do for another 6+ months until the next raid instances? I really want to know is are 10 man instances easier for the casuals, and the 25 half more geared towards the raiders in difficulty.
Ben Nov 18th 2008 1:42PM
Yeah, since it only takes a raid 1 clear to get your entire guild geared.
The Casual Nov 18th 2008 2:39PM
"I mean if it only takes 1 month to get through all the raid instances, what are the raiders going to do for another 6+ months until the next raid instances?"
... If it only takes casual players 3 months to get to level 80, what are the casual players going to do for another 15+ months until the next expansion pack?
It's a provocative lead-in sentence, but lets be honest with ourselves here. Too many of us (myself included) couldn't get into Kara raids because it was too difficult pre-3.0.2. Yes, I know you could clear it in your sleep with your monitor turned off, your mouse inverted, while barking instructions at your dog to teach him to control your character, but you had T6 gear and had already cleared it over 100 times, so it was already EZMode.
I think the new strategy is brilliant. I argued for casual-friendly raids over 2 years ago, before I cancelled my account for 12 months (if I can find the forum post, I'll link it).
If Blizzard kept developing content exclusively for the people who burn through 2 years worth of development time in less than a week, they'd chase away half their players within the next year. I'm still mildly surprised that their numbers didn't collapse during that long dry period between BC release and Quel'Danas, because there was no substantive new content added for casual players.
As it stands, raiders still have their top-end, "no-casuals-allowed," "noob-free" playground in the 25 man content - if the achievements attached to Heroic-mode dungeons had some loot or titles or some sort of reward attached to them, that would be even better. The hardest dungeons should still drop the best loot, and the hardest achievements should get the best goodies.
But now there are raids for the rest of us, which I think is perfect. I was planning to play through level 80, see the content, complete the quests, see what I could of the storyline, and cancel my account, because the raid treadmill - as it was in TBC - was just too steep for me to participate. The jump in commitment, effort, and time from "level up to 70" to "raid up past Karazhan" was just too big a gap for me to cover, and if Wrath went the same way, I was going to pay my $40, spend 2 months leveling, see the sights, and quit to go play Gears of War 2 or something.
Now, as it stands today, Blizzard will probably keep me suckling their teat for another 6 months; maybe more, if they add raids that I can participate in too with each content patch. It's perfect, and my only fear now is that they'll pull the rug out from under me.