Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsThe Queue: Wrath's current raids and their difficulty
by Alex Ziebart 
Nov 18th 2008 at 11:00AM
Today's edition of The Queue is a little raid-centric with a heavy splash of opinion, just as a warning, starting with kevin's question...
There are currently only four raids in Wrath: Vault of Archavon, Naxx, The Obsidian Sanctum, and The Eye of Eternity. Later on Icecrown Citadel. Is that all? What other raids are to be include into Wrath?
Blizzard has laid out the basic framework of their next few content patches for us, so we know a little bit. Patch 3.1 will bring us Ulduar, a raid in Storm Peaks using the Titan motif. Patch 3.2 will contain a new raid instance, but Blizzard hasn't announced what it is. My money is this raid will take place beneath Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'kahet and focus on Yogg-Saron and the Faceless Ones. Patch 3.4 will, most likely, contain the Icecrown raid, and that will have brought us full circle on Wrath of the Lich King and prepare us for the next expansion. Sunwell Plateau was in 2.4, so it makes sense.
RMCEACHI said...
What's going on with Shadowmeld? Is it broken?
I have no idea what you mean, you're going to have to be a little more specific. Every Night Elf I asked about a Shadowmeld bug didn't know of one, and are really excited about the ability. A racial Vanish when you're out questing is pretty freaking awesome.
Omnishinzui said...
People have been saying Naxx is easier then Kara when it first came out. Can you or someone compare the two? Is it easy as kara after the 3.0.2 hit or is it just not like what Zul'aman was where you had to wipe about 10x before getting the entire raid to understand how to survive a boss fight (pre-3.0.2 patch)?
The best comparison I can come up with is that 10-man Naxxramas is a lot less like Karazhan and a lot more like UBRS, if you're old school enough to remember that place. It's not really a raid so much as a 10-man dungeon, if that makes any sense at all. The bosses have their gimmicks, but you hardly need finesse or team coordination to pull them off. You can blunder through it with a PUG, and you don't need to really gear for it at all. Are you level 80? You can kill Kel'thuzad with 9 level 80 friends.
I really think they're all a little too easy. I completely agree that the intro raids in The Burning Crusade were too hard in the beginning, but they swung around to the other extreme. That's not much better. If you could still zone into raid instances before top level like you used to be able to do, I have no doubt level 78s would be clearing the places. The Obsidian Sanctum is the first raid that will pose any challenge, and that will be with 3 drakes up, the 'hard mode' of the raid.
This is all made worse by the fact that... if you were a high-end raider before, you're probably really good at learning/following strategies and adapting to things going to hell. Raiding does hone your PvE skill, whether people like to admit it or not. If you're going from something like Black Temple or Sunwell... or even Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine, going into Naxxramas is a massive step backwards in difficulty. That's how it should be for new players, but it's jarring for everyone else. The new Naxxramas is perfect for people who have absolutely never stepped into a raid before in their entire lives, but I'm willing to bet that most people who plan to do Naxxramas have done at least a little raiding in The Burning Crusade and this content will be rendered trivial. A little challenge would have been nice. I don't think anybody expected it to be a step up from Sunwell Plateau, but we also didn't expect the new raids to be done in PUGs with greens. That's too much.
Players are going to run out of raid/dungeon content really, really fast early on, especially those people that play specifically for that. Patch 3.1 is going to need to arrive fairly quickly, and I hope Ulduar is more of a challenge.
Patch 3.1 brings us Ulduar, dual specs, significant changes to all the classes, and more! We've got you covered from top to bottom with our Guide to Patch 3.1.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 8)
GrayElf Nov 18th 2008 7:47PM
The "I just feel like it" time sinks are Achievements - they've replaced (end-game) content with fluff. Don't get me wrong, I like Achievements - but not at this kinda cost!
And on fishing, do you mean at lower levels, or higher? At max, I've only got 1-2 skillups so far, from 20-30 fish. They've nerfed everything at lower levels to make it easier to get to the BC end-point, which is the starting point for Wrath...makes sense to me.
wolfdust Nov 18th 2008 12:06PM
I'm a tank and was only really getting into raiding before wrath. Kara wasn't too bad. i had a few greens and was doing fine. U would occasionally get pwned when doing a bad pull followed by a pet going stray.
However going through the first 2 instances has been a piece of piss. No coordination, no chatter, no tactics. Sort of good and sort of bad. I don't wanna complete the game quick. Its meant to last. If everyone clears everything what will we do? Real life. no fucking way.
I think they should start introducing more solo class quests that are solid. U cant take a group with u just u on ur own. And do something with the old content. who go's to silithus anymore?
Andre Nov 18th 2008 12:08PM
Don´t know if someone asked this already but here it goes.
Did you go into any dungeon with a hunter pet tanking? If you did, was it any good, difficult, impossible or pretty easy since you have, like, 6 people in your party instead of only 5?
pantear Nov 18th 2008 1:45PM
Judging by the Nexus, it's going to go from fairly ok to almost impossible.
jesse Nov 18th 2008 12:10PM
haha well be killing malygos, then going back to sunwell for more of a challange ;P
Jyotai Nov 18th 2008 12:14PM
I'll say again what I've said elsewhere.
WoW is the Walmart of MMOs - its played by the masses and has to appeal to the masses. Its difficulty cannot be tailored to the 1000 or so players that are hardcore raiders. It has to be tailored to the other 10,999,000 of us.
The reason most people never stepped foot into a raid before is that they simply couldn't. Wrath should hopefully break that pattern. You're going to see a lot more raiders. No, they won't be the elite top skilled crowd they used to be. But in an MMO this size, they shouldn't be.
Too many people play this game for it to be built for such a small select crowd.
GrayElf Nov 18th 2008 7:52PM
Your numbers are sadly out...
1000 per server might be kinda close. But then, you miss the basic logic - many people don't WANT to raid...everyone who wanted to, could, especially after 3.0 came out. And those people can always start out with older raids, if they want to.
There's always more stuff there for people who haven't raided - if they aren't too busy pvp'ing or doing arenas etc. But for those who focus on raids? Blizz has shown us that there ISN'T enough for them to do.
They addressed the biggest hurdle to raiding with the 10/25 man split. Then they went and nerfed it into the ground so that anyone could treat it like a low lvl dungeon with 10 people instead of 5...and wrecked it for those who're capable of more.
myztik Nov 18th 2008 12:17PM
seriously people need to understand raiding is not supposed to be for casuals, thats what shattared halls, slabs, steamvault, alcatraz was for, casuals. raids are for the people who work hard to conquor them, nuff said
Shardrell Nov 18th 2008 12:37PM
Sorry, some of us enjoy conquering challenges with our friends and being able to play an entire game (rather than part of it) without having to raid 4-6 nights a week or constantly grind mats for consumables. It doesn't mean we suck or that we don't work hard enough. It means that everyone can slow down and enjoy the game as a game, not an e-sport. If you're one of the minority of players who prefer to play the game as an e-sport, I apologise. From their recent remarks, I believe that Blizzard's devs are recognising that they need to make their content more accessible to more of their playerbase, and that's going to happen whether you believe it's "supposed to" or not.
Dillon Nov 18th 2008 1:44PM
That's what raids used to be.
Look at the progression from vanilla WoW to Wrath and you'll see that's not the direction anymore.
Hopefully they'll offer heroic versions, but I'm all for content that is less prohibitive to the largest portion of the userbase - and obviously Blizz is too right now.
Steve Nov 18th 2008 12:19PM
I haven't seen it mentioned but everything I've read (including something here on WI http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/10/10/new-details-on-upcoming-3-x-patches/) has stated that Icecrown will be patch 3.3 not 3.4. I can't find the article now, but I'm fairly certain that Blizz is going to try to stick to a 3 major patch per expansion cycle. The main reason that BC had 4 major content patches was that 2.2 was the voice chat patch, otherwise it would have been 3.
Thrush Nov 18th 2008 12:20PM
Unrelated: Where do we submit questions for The Queue? I'm wondering if there are any opposing factions in Northrend that we have to choose between, similar to the Scryer/Aldor opposition.
Evi Nov 18th 2008 12:27PM
I'm reserving judgment until I've experienced the raid content firsthand. I feel like a lot of people here are jumping to conclusions. It's too soon to judge if you haven't set foot in Naxx yet.
Sannald Nov 18th 2008 12:28PM
@ Myztik
If you consider yourself to be a hard-core raider, then I am extremely relieved that I do not have to put myself in the same category as you.
If having an extremely inflated ego defines a hard-core raider, then count me out of that crowd.
If lording video game accomplishments over others qualifies you as hard-core then I am glad I am not a part of it.
I congratulate you on having a toon that was highly sought after in a raiding environment which allowed you to ride coat-tails of others. I believe you rode on coat-tails because the way you string together your thoughts definitely implies that you did not get there based on your brain power.
Please keep your elitist rhetoric off of these boards, and do us all a favor and go play Final Fantasy Online. There you can go fight a boss battle that is 18+ hours long! Enjoy. =P
holyhope Nov 18th 2008 12:34PM
@sannald
did you just attack that person for having an opinion?
you yourself are braindead, or whatever. he or she is allowed to come here to discuss what he or she thinks, dont flame them becuase they said something that makes you upset. His class has nothing to do with how far he got in the game because pre 0.2 you had to be good not a casual player. You all need to stop having such big Epeens and learn taht people can have opinions, myztik you may not be right about casual raids and all, but im sure you worked hard to get where you were. dont let @ssholes like that bring down the fun you get out of this game, and sannald Im guessing your one of the noobs that want content nerfed after a reply like that. you must be a woman cause your a utter bitch.
Dere Nov 18th 2008 5:48PM
Re: Holyhope
-1
Chlorine in your gene pool is badly needed. I am guessing that you commonly use sexist/racist terms in your everyday dialogue? Have fun at your He-man Woman Haters club.
Cetha Nov 18th 2008 12:32PM
I'm sure this was posted somewhere but I can't seem to find it. How about a how-to-guide for Strand of the Ancients?
Brasson Nov 18th 2008 12:38PM
The thing that I never really liked about BC was the lack of an UBRS type raid. A ten-man place you could get into and knock some heads around. Something that was tricky at some points, an end boss that needed a hunter to kite, that nasty corner pull in the room before the Beast, and the occasional assassin to gank a healer.
Burning Crusade was serious business. Wrath is FUN.
Xcelsior Nov 18th 2008 12:42PM
A couple of thoughts:
Shadowmeld: In looking at the tooltip description (Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.) it shouldn’t work as an aggro dump when in a raid, but one of our bear tanks found out that it does exactly that during the Bloodboil fight when he tried to SM to let the other tanks catch up to his threat level. While the tank that was next in line did get aggro, when the bear came out of SM, he was at the bottom of the aggro list. So, based on the tooltip, I’d say it’s bugged.
Raiding: I can see both sides of this issue, although at the end of the day I’d have to side with Blizzard’s decision to ‘nerf’ the content so more people/guilds can see it and experience it, especially seeing how much this expansion ties into and expands the Lore. And the game has 11 million players – Blizz is best served by catering to the masses, not the top 2% that can devote the time required to master complex instances. Harsh, but true. The top end guilds are going to have to use achievements to polish their e-peens from here on out. And I don’t really have a problem with that.
KK Feb 7th 2009 3:07PM
"Raiding: I can see both sides of this issue, although at the end of the day I’d have to side with Blizzard’s decision to ‘nerf’ the content so more people/guilds can see it and experience it, especially seeing how much this expansion ties into and expands the Lore. "
I completely agree that the content needed to be retuned so more people could do it. Having run Naxx I think that it was a little TOO much though. You should at least run some heroics to get gear not run in just greens.
And before I get someone calling me 'hardcore' I'm not. I ENJOY only raiding a couple nights a week and still seeing content. But to me the difficulty level was fun and not an 'epeen achievement." I find Naxx to be a bit of a disappointment personally.