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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe Queue: Wrath's current raids and their difficulty
by Alex Ziebart 
Nov 18th 2008 at 11:00AM
Today's edition of The Queue is a little raid-centric with a heavy splash of opinion, just as a warning, starting with kevin's question...
There are currently only four raids in Wrath: Vault of Archavon, Naxx, The Obsidian Sanctum, and The Eye of Eternity. Later on Icecrown Citadel. Is that all? What other raids are to be include into Wrath?
Blizzard has laid out the basic framework of their next few content patches for us, so we know a little bit. Patch 3.1 will bring us Ulduar, a raid in Storm Peaks using the Titan motif. Patch 3.2 will contain a new raid instance, but Blizzard hasn't announced what it is. My money is this raid will take place beneath Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'kahet and focus on Yogg-Saron and the Faceless Ones. Patch 3.4 will, most likely, contain the Icecrown raid, and that will have brought us full circle on Wrath of the Lich King and prepare us for the next expansion. Sunwell Plateau was in 2.4, so it makes sense.
RMCEACHI said...
What's going on with Shadowmeld? Is it broken?
I have no idea what you mean, you're going to have to be a little more specific. Every Night Elf I asked about a Shadowmeld bug didn't know of one, and are really excited about the ability. A racial Vanish when you're out questing is pretty freaking awesome.
Omnishinzui said...
People have been saying Naxx is easier then Kara when it first came out. Can you or someone compare the two? Is it easy as kara after the 3.0.2 hit or is it just not like what Zul'aman was where you had to wipe about 10x before getting the entire raid to understand how to survive a boss fight (pre-3.0.2 patch)?
The best comparison I can come up with is that 10-man Naxxramas is a lot less like Karazhan and a lot more like UBRS, if you're old school enough to remember that place. It's not really a raid so much as a 10-man dungeon, if that makes any sense at all. The bosses have their gimmicks, but you hardly need finesse or team coordination to pull them off. You can blunder through it with a PUG, and you don't need to really gear for it at all. Are you level 80? You can kill Kel'thuzad with 9 level 80 friends.
I really think they're all a little too easy. I completely agree that the intro raids in The Burning Crusade were too hard in the beginning, but they swung around to the other extreme. That's not much better. If you could still zone into raid instances before top level like you used to be able to do, I have no doubt level 78s would be clearing the places. The Obsidian Sanctum is the first raid that will pose any challenge, and that will be with 3 drakes up, the 'hard mode' of the raid.
This is all made worse by the fact that... if you were a high-end raider before, you're probably really good at learning/following strategies and adapting to things going to hell. Raiding does hone your PvE skill, whether people like to admit it or not. If you're going from something like Black Temple or Sunwell... or even Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine, going into Naxxramas is a massive step backwards in difficulty. That's how it should be for new players, but it's jarring for everyone else. The new Naxxramas is perfect for people who have absolutely never stepped into a raid before in their entire lives, but I'm willing to bet that most people who plan to do Naxxramas have done at least a little raiding in The Burning Crusade and this content will be rendered trivial. A little challenge would have been nice. I don't think anybody expected it to be a step up from Sunwell Plateau, but we also didn't expect the new raids to be done in PUGs with greens. That's too much.
Players are going to run out of raid/dungeon content really, really fast early on, especially those people that play specifically for that. Patch 3.1 is going to need to arrive fairly quickly, and I hope Ulduar is more of a challenge.
Patch 3.1 brings us Ulduar, dual specs, significant changes to all the classes, and more! We've got you covered from top to bottom with our Guide to Patch 3.1.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 8 of 8)
Mr. Crow Nov 19th 2008 11:04AM
Any information on the "Decipher" ability that Inscription had in the Beta? It was an ability that the trainers had, but no one could actually level high enough to learn it.
Magnus Nov 19th 2008 5:00AM
I am more than happy that finally an UBRS-like raid will again be possible, even if lock-out timers will prevent it being as frequented as UBRS was. OTOH, that means that the loot will be better.
Also, all the e-peen polishing raiders can go and vent their nerd rage on Warhammer Online, for all I care. I had to quit raiding because of time concerns when BC came out, and I was not pleased at all that I wasn´t able to experience Illidans downfall and other important lore content of the game, because Blizzard back then catered more to the hardcore raiders than the casual crowd.
These newest developments are the best thing to happen in forever for people who play WOW casually. Also, a good move by Blizzard, who recently had moved again more into the "elitist" direction, with the arena ratings requirement on all PVP equipment.
Magresda Nov 19th 2008 8:22AM
Ah... UBRS. Good old UBRS... But WHY NAXX!? Why trivialize (is that a word? ) something which used to be the top of the mountain. Only the best got to experience Kel'Thuzad, Sapphiron, etc. and it was kind of an honor. Going back as a 25 man won't make it better at all...
Aoeadin Nov 19th 2008 7:40AM
Can I just say this.
Naxx is an old, old, old raid that has been retuned for 10/25 level 80 players. None of the boss encounters have significantly changed. Nihilum/SK (whatever the hell they call themselves now) have been practicing these raids for months. It's not surprising they got it finished that quickly.
To all those people that are QQing that this is EZ mode and blizzard are sucking up to the casuals; You do realise that if you wipe just ONCE in any of these raids everything you have said in your post becomes null and void and you are the ones that are naabs and can't progress through EZmode.
rainly Nov 19th 2008 9:54AM
I have read alot of comments about Wrath raid difficulty... Have there been any blue posts responding to either side of the QQ regarding them being too hard/too easy?
sinthar Nov 19th 2008 9:57AM
well i guess i stand in about the middle of this - experienced a lot of raiding in tbc, but never got the top bosses T5+. Personally id say the raiding scene HAS to have a primer for ppl new to the game. If the 'hard core' dont like it - then make up your own challenges (like the kara - naked - runs, or 5 manning gruuls etc etc) til the hard raids come out - theres loads of achievements to do, PVP will be starting up again soon (ish). Its a shame most raiding guilds did their research in beta, cos i think thats a main cause of the frustration now (oh and also why wasnt the lack of difficulty pointed out in beta may i ask, cos its the same ppl who did it in beta are now doing the raids now?). But you cant have your cake AND eat it in this case. Personally im taking my time lvling up - and smelling the roses (or other aromatic items) on the way up. Enjoy - after all theres a LOT of time to go. And were not all just after world/continent/server firsts. LOL i didnt even GET my copy til 3 days after launch!
Anyhow have fun folks - cos thats wot its about - not 1sts
Vlatch Nov 19th 2008 10:29AM
I'm sure this has been said already, but here's my two cents. The Burning Crusade opening raids - even Karazhan - were tuned way too high to start. Blizzard then had to go back and nerf everything to the ground to get people to actually run them.
Guilds that completed Gruul's and Mags on "hardmode" before the nerfs wore it like some kind of badge of honor. Now, the opening raids are too easy. Wouldn't it be something if Blizzard went back and increased the difficulty?
I don't know what would be worse in the players' minds. Making an instance harder, or nerfing it to make it easier. I imagine making them harder would cause a bigger uproar.
They talked all through the process of creating the xpac that their goal was to make people take raiders based on skill and not on the gear. It seems to me that they haven't followed up on that promise...how am I supposed to tell a guildie in lvl 65 greens and blues that they can't raid until they get better gear (i.e. learn to play your char at cap) if we can clear it like Kara after the 3.0 nerf?
Vektorix Nov 19th 2008 11:38AM
The lack of difficulty of raids on beta WAS pointed out on various raid-oriented message forums, although not in authoritative, press release type style such as 25thNovember's. Spend a few minutes going back into the archives of elitistjerks.com and you'll find a great deal of commentary from people who had played on beta about the raids and their tuning, although a lot of it is wrapped in class-specific theorycrafting.
I know that among the top guilds on Akama, there was something of a wait-and-see attitude which only really started to crystalize when the raid developers at Blizzcon said flat out that raiding in Wrath would be easier than in Burning Crusade and when everyone saw the extreme 3.0 raid nerfs.
I think Blizzard is getting exactly the result they intended, which is a skewing of instanced content to a much lower level of gear and skill. That's their decision to make, and I can see valid business reasons for doing so. My point of view is that there SHOULD be easier raiding options available for people who want to see content and don't have the time to devote that others do, but there should ALSO be raiding options that challenge dedicated players.
Just as there are casual options (battlegrounds) and hardcore options (arena) for PvP, there should be those options for PvE content as well. I don't know know a single raider who would begrudge casual players a chance to see content in an easier form - they just don't want the challenge and reward of difficult raids eliminated from the game.
BWR-Takuye Nov 19th 2008 12:21PM
Hey guys, great site.
How about a guide to all the daily quests brought about in Wrath? I've been focusing on leveling to 80, but it would be nice to know where the daily quests are, which ones give which rep, and if there are any daily quests hubs, such as Skettis, Orgi'La, or Quel'Danas.
Thanks, and keep it up!
Carang of Kargath Nov 19th 2008 1:13PM
I'm looking at changing my tailoring specialization. Currently I'm spellcloth but I'm considering switching to mooncloth for woltk. What I want to know is if I change to mooncloth will it unlearn my spellcloth patterns I can make or will I just not be allowed to make those patterns but still have them in my profession window?
cynical Nov 19th 2008 6:20PM
Blizzard seems to have forgotten about the hardcore raiders, but is it a smart strategy?
We're the ones that buy the Collector's Edition, extra copies for friends, the trading cards, the figurines, the strategy guides, the hats, the teeshirt, order Direct TV for mounts, and attend Blizzcon.
How interested in these additional sources of revenue for Blizzard are casual players, IF, they are casual players?
And as for capturing a greater share of the pre-teen demographic of gamers, that age group can't afford the above extras unless mommy and daddy hand them money.
Content too easy, raiders move on. = Less profit.
kenney Nov 19th 2008 6:26PM
Raid progression should get progressively more difficult- starting with something anyone can do, and ending with something that gives the first hundred guilds on wowjutsu a challenge. As Blizzard adds new content, they tune down the difficulty on the previously next-to-impossible content so that it is more accessible to mere mortals. At the end of the lifespan of an expansion, tuning all the content down so that many more people can experience it is also a really great policy for an MMO- although, with WOTLK I think a lot of guilds were already raider-starved due to boredom and were not able to take advantage of that.
I think they did this near perfectly with the burning crusade- with the exception of Kara being too hard for a starter (and competing with molten core for week-to-week drudgery; I had to run karathons for guildmates all the way through SSC and TK). I honestly think the game loses a little depth if it only provides a challenge to the casual player. A sliding difficulty as you get to the endgame provides a challenge for everyone, and keeps everyone engaged.
There are enough raiders at Blizzard that I think they will not let WoW stay EZ Mode- I just hope that they provide a nice LINEAR progression of difficulty so that it's not always one extreme or the other.
Gavinitis Nov 20th 2008 5:41PM
So Wrath's been out a week.
Maybe a few top notch, hardcore, driven guilds have cleared some raid content.
So what? They did the same thing every step of the way before. That's what makes them who they are. Most of you haven't even set foot in there. What's the point of QQing when you haven't even seen it yet?
1-60 - It was new to EVERYONE. Raids were hard, you had to spend a lot of time on them.
60-70 - Not quite as new, Kara was a hard to start with and got nerfed some. A lot of people didn't get to raid at the 60 level cap due to the "newness" and the need to put so much time and effort into raiding initially. The content got progressively harder all the way to Sunwell. People eventually progressed through, even more casual guilds.
I'm on a carebear server (joined for friends, stayed because I made new ones) that had horde side 1 guild in Sunwell and alliance side (I'm alliance) 3-4 guilds in BT and that was it. After the patch my guild cleared 3 bosses in both BT and MH, but we could barely clear gruuls and mags previously because we couldn't get 25 "skilled" people together at the same time. We had done 4/6 ZA previous to the patch. (Guild was only 6 months old when patch came out) That doesn't mean we didn't have great people who could have been in those instances before, we just couldn't find enough people of that same level to do them. We got in with the higher progressed guilds and learned the fights so we could take our guild when the patch came out.
Oh and wtf are people crying about the first few instance in Wrath being easy? Was Ramps/BF/SP horribly hard to start with? I mean they are basically level 70 instances which we've been farming on heroic mode forever now. You wanted a mini BT or MH as your initial instance in Wrath?
70-80 - So many of us got to raid, so many of us have been 70, or have multiple 70's. So many of us have used ElitistJerks, WoWHead, Allakhazam and many other sites to become hardcore casuals. Of course the entry stuff is easy. If you put a noob who just hit 70 and never raided a day in his life in Naxx with 9 other noobs he'd get slaughtered. Stop looking at it from the perspective of the OP superman and start looking at it from the perspective of not everyone has been playing for several years.
Blizz put a lot of time and effort into making this expansion what it is. Beautiful landscapes, tons of quests, new instances, new raids, new gear. They did what you wanted, made the gear get replaced slower. They made the entry level raids a little easier (maybe, I'm just over 72 since I've been busy with overtime at work and also worked a DK up to 63). They gave you options to start in different zones. They gave you a huge PVP area. They gave you an awesome new class. They reworked tons of game mechanics, spells, and abilities to make the classes flow through their rotations better.
All this time and effort by hundreds of Blizz employees and a week after it's released they are getting nothing but QQ from so many people.
I know plenty of us are thoroughly enjoying this new content and grateful that Blizzard was able to come through in such a great way.
Shira Nov 25th 2008 3:46PM
Let us not forget that all of these new raid instances in Wotlk will be able to be completed at the Heroic difficulty. If you really think about it, it makes sense to sugar coat the regular 10 man Naxx for regular players to see the content. On the other hand, the other side of the population that will want to be challenged can always do Naxx on Heroic for the 10 and 25 man. For those who haven't done heroics in Wotlk yet, do not take them too lightly (unless you have SW/BT gear =P) they do equate to stepping into heroics for the first time in BC over a year ago with mostly blue gear. We also have to remember that people stepping into Wotlk nowadays are far better geared than they were stepping into BC. I believe this can account for alot of the complaints about raids/dungeons feeling easier than they did entering into BC. Did Blizz factor this in? Who knows, but I'm excited for the challenges that await in heroic difficulties, adn the loot as well.