I thought this was the entire reason for Blizz opting to make all raids either 10-man or 25-man. 10-man raids for the casuals, 25-man for the hardcores.

The 25-man raids will no doubt still pose a serious challenge to the "ZOMG Wrath raids are too easy" crowd.

Indeed.

I am all for Blizzard making Heroic modes for each instance currently out there.

I agree with Malyfactian


Although in my post below i mention not doing many raids, but im referring to mostly old world.


I find the "ZOMG" crowd wont tell you how many times they're going to*technically wipe*( gotta love soul stones) and will have to reset, to try again. Im not referring to ALL raid groups just the poser's.

This after all, is WoW, and im sure you've been around a big talking tank who cant hold aggro, or another class that thinks "well maybe if we just do this..." we can get it (after wipe number 6 or so). : /

Put training wheels on your bike right now. In fact, everyone should.
You certainly don't need them if you know how to ride the bike, but at least everyone can use it, too, right.

I applaud the mentality that everyone should be able to play the game, but you shouldn't punish the guys that want a real challenge beforehand.

Ulduar will hopefully be a very intense raid that will REQUIRE the gear from Naxx, Malygos, and OS to be doable and no T6 gear at all...and an attunement wouldn't be a huge issue, either.

Raiding should be available for all, but that shouldn't mean the guilds that do raids well should be punished with a very easy raid to start with. It's a very hard thing to balance.

I'm all for the content being available to everyone... but there is a point where it should be a challenge...
If the content isn't challenging then its not really worth playing

Now... I'm not riding the egotist elite wagon on this one... I only saw the first pull in BT and we wiped on it... and couldn't make it past the 2nd boss in hyjal post patch.

I want my raiding to be challenging and engaging, not just another timesink
GG bliz on the 10 man raids for everyone, stick with it
25man versions should be harder tho... it didn't even take a full grp of 80s to clear all the 25man content

"GG bliz on the 10 man raids for everyone, stick with it
25man versions should be harder tho... it didn't even take a full grp of 80s to clear all the 25man content"

This I agree with completely. The 25-mans should pose an appropriate level of challenge, equivalent to prior raiding progressions. If they do not, it's a failure in design that needs to be fixed.

heaven forbid you L2play.

Don't act like BC content was hard. I know a guild that raided for 1-2 days per week and easily cleared BT pre 2.4. It wasn't a huge time commitment, but they did have to know how to spec/gear their toons so they could succeed.

Implying that BC was tuned for hardcore players is a joke. SWP maybe, but everything before it? No.

I've actually quit playing my main because everything is going to be so easy. Just think about what happened - ALL of the raiding content has been cleared in less than one week. That means that very little of the new Wrath gear is actually required to "beat the game". Theres also a good chance that some of them were still wearing some Sunwell gear. Twentyfivenovember(?) didn't spend weeks gearing up their raid and crawling through progression raids, they walked in, laid the smack down, now they can take 3 weeks off until Season 5 starts.

Blizzard is getting rid of their "hardcore" players in favor of attracting the more casual player. Its a business strategy. Can't blame them. They lose 2% of their players due to easymode content and they add and extra 3 million kids that can finally clear all the content.

I'm not saying I'm going to quit WoW over this, but before Wrath going in Sunwell and downing Kalecgos and Brutallus actually felt like it was a major accomplishment. With the way the raid content is being cleared its just going to feel like - "meh".

Yes, they should be more accessible, but I'd have to say that kara was pretty damn accessible. I didn't have to do much to get going in there.

And the point is you shouldn't be able to walk in with greens as a fresh 80 and clear the place. You should at least have to spend a few weeks getting blues from 80 instances

@hold up



You also have to realize, 25thnovember spent months in the WotlK beta working and plannning so they could be first to do this stuff. They didnt just wake up at 12:00AM release day and go, hey, lets beat Wotlk and get all the world firsts!

It was ridiculously easy to get into the wotlk beta and they were all in their devising plans to reach the appropriate level and then do those raids they had practiced.

When SWP came out, how long would it have taken to down kil'jaeden if the raid had been accessible right away. It would have probably taken that guild the better part of a week maybe two. Then you also gotta keep in mind they wouldnt have had months to practice the content on beta realms.

I think some raid content should be accessible to

@hold up

The people who cleared the content were the cream of the crop of min-maxers and experienced raiders. What they didn't tell you was just how long they spent in beta practicing to clear it so fast. They've been through the content multiple times already in beta and honed their strategies. They had Sunwell gear, which wasn't all that short of the gear we're expected to have when we start raids at level 80.

It's not going to be super easy. We'll still have to work on it, like they did in for those months in beta.

Maybe a little of the raiding content is like training wheels, but we had issues in BC with newer players because there were no training wheels. We had UBRS back in vanilla WoW and could run people through there to get them used to being in larger groups, using addons, following a kill call, and general raid protocol, all in an easy and fun environment. I think that we should have at least one easy raid instance for this purpose. There are a lot of people who have never raided who aren't bad players, just new, and it's just not feasible to drop them into the middle of a difficult raid because it hurts the rest of the group. That happened with Karazhan pretty often.

I think that we need to wait for more reports before passing judgment on the content difficulty.

@ hold up

Of course its not going to be a massive challenge. These are Wrath starter raids (Tier 7 content) and are suitable for when you hit 80 and get a little bit of gear.

These top raiders are complaining that content is too easy in Wrath, but bear in mind there are other raids which would be much harder coming up, like Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel.

I'll admit, the content was okay in TBC, but my main problem was finding a raiding guild that would accept me (I played a Hunter then, and its hard to find raid spots as one)