That sinking sensation

If you're not that far into Dragonblight quests and don't want to be spoiled, I'm putting it behind the cut.
The quest is A Letter for Home, and if you're doing or you've done the questlines in Dragonblight concerning the Moonrest Gardens (most of which are identical regardless of your faction), eventually you'll run across a drop from an important leader amongst the Blue Dragonflight forces. The Alliance will get Captain Malin's Letter; the Horde will get Lieutenant Ta'zinni's Letter.
Both letters have been written by people (the former a human, the latter a troll) who were blackmailed into service for the Blue Dragonflight under threat of harm to their families, but are secretly working to destroy the dragons' efforts from within. You kill the turncoats and then you get the letter drop explaining this sad state of affairs, and decide to take it to your local commander to see if there's anything that can be done for this person's family.
Now, Overlord Agmar, the guy who's running the eponymous Agmar's Hammer for the Horde in Dragonblight, is no bowl of chuckles under ordinary circumstances. He's slightly stressed and utterly disgusted by three other traitors running around the area. He is one of the most unsentimental and least forgiving NPC's you will find in the entire game. As far as he is concerned, you are a member of the Horde. You are aware of the problems that the Horde (and, he will grudgingly admit, the Alliance) faces in Northrend; if you weren't, you wouldn't be here. You will do your job and you will do it to the best of your ability, aware of all the things that ride on it, and he will not pity or accept cowardice, hesitation, or -- God help you -- betrayal, because you do not have the luxury of thinking only of yourself.
So I wasn't expecting him to react well, but I also wasn't expecting this:
Ahahahaha... boo hoo, how touching.
<The condescension in the overlord's deep-throated laughter is palpable.>
What did I say? Traitors! Still, I knew Deino once upon a time. She at least is a troll with honor!
I'll see to it that she finds out what happened to her brother. I'll even forget to tell her that you're the one that killed him.
<Agmar fixes you with a calculated stare.>
But I own you now, <class>!
This...bothered me, the sheer callousness of it, to the point where I really wondered for the first time if I were playing the right faction (although I got over it when I logged to my Dwarf and spent an hour being directed to kill the people who'd wound up rebuilding Stormwind for free). A more charitable person might shrug and say that Agmar is simply a character in the mold of Gregory House, M.D. -- you can be a good person without necessarily being a nice one -- but still. That kind of sucked.<The condescension in the overlord's deep-throated laughter is palpable.>
What did I say? Traitors! Still, I knew Deino once upon a time. She at least is a troll with honor!
I'll see to it that she finds out what happened to her brother. I'll even forget to tell her that you're the one that killed him.
<Agmar fixes you with a calculated stare.>
But I own you now, <class>!
A lot of people playing Horde will cite Message From the West as being a sort of epistolary counterpart to this quest, and it's very true that Saurfang's letter washes away a lot of the unpleasantness you've probably dealt with while leveling (as does Saurfang's conversation with Garrosh Hellscream in Warsong Hold; hang around them until you see it). There's a lot of infighting over what truly constitutes the soul of the Horde. I can only hope that Saurfang's concern prevails over Agmar's indifference.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Quests, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 10)
Arktic Nov 20th 2008 7:41PM
That depends if when you /beg you stop fighting, of if you are doing it to get a cheap shot in. If after you /beg, you run away, I just might let you go... no one has tried it yet though.
JohnSmith Nov 20th 2008 8:26PM
Good question Joe. Honestly it would depend on the situation. In a BG or world PvP zone like Wintersgrasp I would most certainly continue attacking since taking you into custody isn't an option and I'm not letting you run off knowing you'll be coming back for more.
On the other hand if I were ganking you out in the wild and you /beg I would let you go.
I've never been able to play a */evil, character in any RP game. It just goes against my nature. I usually prefer to go chaotic/good which gives me full license to kill people I think deserve it but not for the raw pleasure or other sadistic reasons.
Deadnaught Nov 20th 2008 9:09PM
If you /beg I would slaughter your even more mercilessly. If you were a gnome and /begged I'd put dots on you from afar and watch you die a slow death...then T bag you, lol.
Chas Nov 20th 2008 7:41PM
I had a really hard time wiping out the Wolvar on behalf of the Tuskarr and leaving all their children milling about. And THEN I got the (daily) quest to kidnap their children... for their own good.
Slugburn Nov 20th 2008 7:45PM
How about the quest the tuskarr at Moa'ki Harbor gives you to go kidnap wolvar babies? I've done that one a couple of times now and it doesn't sit well. I know that technically you're doing it to save them, but I still feel sort of bad as I scoop them into my bag.
Burgdorn Nov 20th 2008 7:52PM
Its tough world ain't it, I mean its the Tuskarr of the Wolvar. Land is low and the Tuskarr are trying to take the harbor in all reality, so its really great to see the request of the Tuskarr to save the cubs so that they can have a chance at life. If there is only one sandwich in front of you and a friend and neither you have eaten in a week, would you let him have it?
Lemons Nov 20th 2008 8:05PM
If you read the quest text the Tuskarr are doing it to ensure the survival of the Wolvar as a species. It's actually quite noble.
zappo Nov 21st 2008 9:30AM
That same argument was made when Aborigine children were assigned to white parents in Australia. As Australia as recently apologized for that episode, I don't think most would really call that type of thing noble.
Ronixis Nov 20th 2008 7:50PM
I've found there's a decent number of these types of "morality" quests, what with the torture and "at any cost" type things. And that's just leveling my alliance characters. With the way things are going, makes you wonder if the Scourge are really that much more "evil" than the Alliance/Horde are. At least they don't discriminate race...
Aurix Nov 20th 2008 7:51PM
I think something that a lot of you are forgetting is that your character doesn't have to -do- every quest. If there's a quest you (or your character) find morally vague, don't do it. No one is standing behind you with a gun to your head saying "DO THIS QUEST NAO OMG!"
Burgdorn Nov 20th 2008 7:53PM
Bravo
Mastique Nov 21st 2008 9:16AM
I agree. I have dropped quests that didn't go along with my, or my character's morals. There is so much to do, and dropping a quest here and there is not going to slow you down one bit.
I am a carebear, and I 'm proud of it. I care... nothing wrong with it. And to take it even further and prove I am the king of carebears - I have a problem killing yellow animals. Yeah, I know its pixels.. yeah, I know they will be feeling better soon... yeah, I know all of that - but I choose not to kill them.
DEHTA has actually vindicated me on this one. I was laughing my ass off when I read about them. Its like Blizzard was watching me play, and said, hey.. that guy needs a faction to justify his carebearyness...
Seriously, its all about what you want to accomplish, and how much fun you can have in a game. I choose to have my fun without hindering the fun of others.
So, if you get your kicks pulling wings off of flies, eating boogers, and torturing as many innocents as you can while you play on mommie's dime, then more power to ya! If you are truly ebil and naxty then go for it - slaughter away - Kharma is a bitch, ain't it?
AJa Nov 20th 2008 7:53PM
I think it's actually really great that Blizzard is putting moral ambiguity in these quests. In that quest in the Maw of Neltharion you're working for some of the most evil, ruthless beings on all of Azeroth, of course they would be asking you to do something that makes you queasy!
It's almost an awesome commentary on the players and the nature of these quests. You don't HAVE to do the quests! There are so many quests in Northrend that you can afford to skip plenty and instead do others and you'll not have any real consequences to face. Some of these quests ask you to do things that a "true hero" would turn down, because they subvert their moral standards. Yet players complete these quests anyway even though they feel that what they're doing in the quests are morally abhorrent!
At what point do you have to stop and say "No, me or my character wouldn't do that. I'm not going to complete this quest"?
I felt terrible about a quest I had to do in Grizzly Hills where I was ordered to slay Orcs "like the animals they are", and even skin one! It didn't dawn on me until afterwords that I didn't have to do the quest.
Quests like these establish the moral ambiguity that this game is based upon, and really build depth in the world. Not everyone in the Horde or Alliance are good and honorable people, many are malicious and xenophobic. Which kind of person is your character?
Rosa Nov 21st 2008 3:29AM
Wow, THANK you. It's taken four pages of comments for someone to mention moral ambiguity?
Personally, I LOVE this sort of thing. This is the reason I hate the draenei but the humans vie for my favourite race. Nobility, nobility, nobility is ridiculous and unrealistic. In real life, there aren't heroes or villains, just people doing what it takes.
Self-righteous omg heroic quest text just irritates me. "Slay the bad guys and be a hero for the Light!" is boring. And while we're at it, "Kill the innocents and drink their blood!" would be just as bad. I like seeing grim paths taken in a world where there are no blacks and whites, where HONOUR!! just screws you and the people you want to protect. Like, you know, reality.
I miss the WC3 days, where when you saw Kael'Thas take Vashj's help and eventually ally with Illidan, you could see that it was because there was no choice, because there is no good and bad, just bad and worse. Those days are gone, and now that same Kael supposedly allies himself with pure evil and we, the warriors of justice and light, have to slay him to save the world!
Gag me.
Sigh.
I've been thrilled by how ambiguous Northrend has been, and to be honest, the torture quest was one of my favourites. You get to choose -- do you dirty your hands and send someone to their knees, begging with pain? Or do you let someone else suffer a fate just as bad, or worse? I want to see hard choices. I want to see desperate times and desperate measures, not a bunch of people who are so unrealistic they always take the high ground and somehow get things done anyways.
Camaris Nov 20th 2008 7:53PM
The most 'awful' revelation for me is definitely the Alliance's new warmongering King. Especially when he went berserk on Thrall, who has always been seen as an honorable leader, even among most Alliance.
So now we have a new King, promoting open warfare with the Horde. Now, as a paladin, I suppose I do favor the more neutral Argent Dawn style approach, so I'm quite uncomfortable with this new leader, and hope Jaina will keep an eye on him.
Burgdorn Nov 20th 2008 8:00PM
I haven't read the comics myself, but it seems that the king is playing the opposite side of things then Thrall had. Thrall saw the generosity of humanity while he did openly despise their cruelty. Problem with the Alliance, and Human's in general is that they're xenophobic, in the case where you look more like a monster they will generalize that their nothing like them. Its a branding thing really, and a very real thing in respect to our own cultures.
The King time in the arena just assured him how savage the Horde really are. To him, keeping his hand at bay has been difficult but he also has been through a lot, and trust probably isn't high on his list.
CuppaGodot Nov 21st 2008 1:30AM
Varian Wrynn's reasoning makes a good deal more sense when you consider his home, his father, and his mentor were all taken from him by orcs, even before his time in Durotar. He's not truly a warmonger, but he has come to the belief that "Live and let live" isn't going to work.
He may not be right, but his reasoning feels very natural. I really like the character and wish a mediocre comic book wasn't the way he was introduced.
Rid Nov 20th 2008 10:51PM
My toon is an undead warlock. That is, he's a reanimated corpse that compels demons to serve him against their will, and uses Fel magic to torment or burn his victims/enemies. He also has progressed in his chosen profession by becoming, in essence, a mass murder. Thousands, nay, tens of thousands of mobs have died from his "Corruption", "Curse of Agony", and the lash, blade, or fireball from his "pets".
As such, I feel no compunction at all in the quests he's been given during his career to to various vile things that, IRL, I would never even consider doing. My toon does what he does, and he has his own motivations (and the Foresaken are, one might note, arguably a bit nuts).
As to Agmar's comment? As soon as I read it I thought "well, if Rid ever gets the chance, *he* will own *you*, Agmar". Which, in character, I'm sure he would: mass-murdering, demon-conjuring undead tend to be dangerous when threatened or provoked. I thought it was a bracing moment in-game. Better yet, I kinda hope the day comes when Rid can pay Agmar back for his threat of blackmail.
Lemons Nov 20th 2008 8:02PM
Hmmm, I did the alli quest and maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but I don't think it was quite as disturbing as the Horde version. Hell, if a night elf told me she "owned me" she'd get bitched slapped.
I think the most disturbing quest I've done in wrath so far was the one where u kill the cultists outside of the Obsidian Dragon Shrine. When they get somewheres around 20% health they plead for their lives! They say stuff like "please don't kill me" and "I was only doing what I was told!" I honestly had the urge to let them live! I don't know what it was, I guess I'm not used to mobs pleading for their lives.
jonchico Nov 20th 2008 8:47PM
its an RPG.
you have free will to choose to do the quest or not... there is a "cancel" button for a reason.