That sinking sensation

If you're not that far into Dragonblight quests and don't want to be spoiled, I'm putting it behind the cut.
The quest is A Letter for Home, and if you're doing or you've done the questlines in Dragonblight concerning the Moonrest Gardens (most of which are identical regardless of your faction), eventually you'll run across a drop from an important leader amongst the Blue Dragonflight forces. The Alliance will get Captain Malin's Letter; the Horde will get Lieutenant Ta'zinni's Letter.
Both letters have been written by people (the former a human, the latter a troll) who were blackmailed into service for the Blue Dragonflight under threat of harm to their families, but are secretly working to destroy the dragons' efforts from within. You kill the turncoats and then you get the letter drop explaining this sad state of affairs, and decide to take it to your local commander to see if there's anything that can be done for this person's family.
Now, Overlord Agmar, the guy who's running the eponymous Agmar's Hammer for the Horde in Dragonblight, is no bowl of chuckles under ordinary circumstances. He's slightly stressed and utterly disgusted by three other traitors running around the area. He is one of the most unsentimental and least forgiving NPC's you will find in the entire game. As far as he is concerned, you are a member of the Horde. You are aware of the problems that the Horde (and, he will grudgingly admit, the Alliance) faces in Northrend; if you weren't, you wouldn't be here. You will do your job and you will do it to the best of your ability, aware of all the things that ride on it, and he will not pity or accept cowardice, hesitation, or -- God help you -- betrayal, because you do not have the luxury of thinking only of yourself.
So I wasn't expecting him to react well, but I also wasn't expecting this:
Ahahahaha... boo hoo, how touching.
<The condescension in the overlord's deep-throated laughter is palpable.>
What did I say? Traitors! Still, I knew Deino once upon a time. She at least is a troll with honor!
I'll see to it that she finds out what happened to her brother. I'll even forget to tell her that you're the one that killed him.
<Agmar fixes you with a calculated stare.>
But I own you now, <class>!
This...bothered me, the sheer callousness of it, to the point where I really wondered for the first time if I were playing the right faction (although I got over it when I logged to my Dwarf and spent an hour being directed to kill the people who'd wound up rebuilding Stormwind for free). A more charitable person might shrug and say that Agmar is simply a character in the mold of Gregory House, M.D. -- you can be a good person without necessarily being a nice one -- but still. That kind of sucked.<The condescension in the overlord's deep-throated laughter is palpable.>
What did I say? Traitors! Still, I knew Deino once upon a time. She at least is a troll with honor!
I'll see to it that she finds out what happened to her brother. I'll even forget to tell her that you're the one that killed him.
<Agmar fixes you with a calculated stare.>
But I own you now, <class>!
A lot of people playing Horde will cite Message From the West as being a sort of epistolary counterpart to this quest, and it's very true that Saurfang's letter washes away a lot of the unpleasantness you've probably dealt with while leveling (as does Saurfang's conversation with Garrosh Hellscream in Warsong Hold; hang around them until you see it). There's a lot of infighting over what truly constitutes the soul of the Horde. I can only hope that Saurfang's concern prevails over Agmar's indifference.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Quests, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 9 of 10)
Solitare-sp Nov 21st 2008 8:53AM
'Not to sound condescending (really), but did it occur to any of you that this moral dilemma is by design? As someone else pointed out... you don't have to do every quest -- just like Arthas didn't have to go psycho in his quest for payback and pick up that cursed pig sticker.
Oh, wait a minute...'
But, but..it was quest, with like gold and XP...?1?!!
But I do feel that in this expansion, we've all grown up and things are a lot darker than before. If anything TBC now feels like a side diversion out in outland for a bit. Now, were back on track, things are moving.
Even my happy-go-lucky human preist feels a bit more grim and determined, as if she's on a mission of vengence, Smiting everything which stand in her way with her power of the light. (sorry that was a bit RP)
In one way its a direct part of now lvling again. for the last 6mths since I dinged 70, I've only ever been doing dailies, BG's or groups/raids, with probably 80% of my time only healing, rather than killing.
Now, I'm out by myself for some/alot of the time, questing in the wilds of Northrend. It really does feel different.
ripperzane Nov 21st 2008 9:07AM
@ Duckaholica:
"I don't know, ALL the orcs/Horde seem to be....really, really angry."
That's the beauty of being able to play Horde/Orcs.
We get to be mean in a game where we pay for it and I get to return to the nice guy I am in RL, but in game I can be a total meanie :)
j/k (sorta)
@everyone else
I do agree, torture is bad, but it is just a game.
Don't think though you could skip the one in the DK area due to some quests reward talent points, but if u can, simply skip the chain.
Zane
Cobra Nov 21st 2008 9:08AM
"This...bothered me, the sheer callousness of it, to the point where I really wondered for the first time if I were playing the right faction (sic)".
Right, Allison. You're playing a Tauren (and a Druid at that) -- a Nature-loving race that sided with the same guys that not only chopped down two-thirds of the Ashenvale Forest just because their leader wanted one of his lieutenants to have something else to do besides wanting to kill his girlfriend, but also murdered Cenarius in the process. And yes, I play a Night Elf. :D
Both sides have some atrocities to account for. We kill the guys that rebuilt our main city, you help -- time and again -- the guys who maimed a multiple-thousand year old sacred forest as a means of distraction. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. ;)
Cheers.
Athenodorus Nov 21st 2008 9:15AM
I'm not mad at Blizzard for putting the quest in the game: I simply decided not to do it. I do wish that there was an alternate quest to kick the behind of the NPC who gave it, though. I've played both Alliance and Horde to 70+ and have discovered that neither side is completely "right", which is as it should be. As a roleplayer, the decision to do a quest or not is governed by my character's morality. I foresee quite a few that I'm going to skip -- hopefully I won't miss any major lore because of the choice.
And therein lies my real objection: By not doing a quest, I'm making a choice, but that choice isn't reflected in the game world. As far as WoW is concerned, I may have just decided to come back later, when there ought to be an option to just say no in the game.
Zethys Nov 21st 2008 9:31AM
Have faith that your devotion to the right side of this game shall be rewarded in time. And also, make no mistake that if Thrall knew just how dire the situation regarding our own faction was in Northrend, he'd probably be here himself selecting new leaders after decapitating the old ones. Plus we know he follows an "enemies closer" style of strategy, evident in Neeru Fireblade, all Warlocks, Deathknights, Forsaken & Blood Elves. The Horde is definitely doing some soul-searching now, what with the Forsaken testing their new plague and teetering on becoming the very thing they hate, and Gorrosh Hellscream's dauntless & blind ambition. However, I'm quite confident that at the end we'll emerge victorious and our trials will prove ever instructive in molding us into a stronger, better, and more "horde" Horde.
Nick S Nov 21st 2008 9:46AM
This may be the most interesting thread ever started on this site. More like this, WI!!!
For me, it's a little bit of light roleplay - my Forsaken characters are filled with a burning hatred of the Lich King, and for them, the ends justify the means. I feel no qualms about doing evil when playing those characters; torture is a part of their story just as service to the light is a part of an Alliance Paladin's. The Wrath Gate animation says it all. "Did you think we had forgiven?"
For my Troll, though, I am deeply conflicted. On the one hand, the violent nature of the Trolls is not to be denied, but if I perpetrate these horrors on the helpless, what makes me better than the savage Trolls we slaughter in ZA, Gun'drak, and elsewhere? Thanks to the severe lack of Troll-related lore inside the game, I am forced to invent or research what I can to develop a persona for my character.
(I'm not a roleplayer or on an RP server; I play my roles entirely in my own head, and don't RP with others.)
Iruel Nov 21st 2008 11:27AM
I'm personally not sure if the sentiments expressed by Grand Apothecary Putress in the Wrath gate animation were really the sentiments of the entire Forsaken race. While it is true that the Forsaken initially joined the Horde under dubious terms (it was more an "alliance of convenience", as it were) I do feel that I am part of a collective force in the Horde when I play my Forsaken characters.
In my mind, Putress goes too far (and this is something you correct as either Alliance or Horde in the Battle for the Undercity) and I'm sure that was the sentiment Blizzard was trying to get across to us. Sylvanas chooses her allies based on who can help her most (I mean, Varimathras.. seriously) but the lasting bonds she creates for her race are with those trying to make the world a less evil place.
Nick S Nov 21st 2008 11:43AM
You're absolutely right that Putress goes too far; Varimathras' faction attacks the Horde just as they attack the Alliance. Nonetheless, I RP a character sympathetic to Varimathras whenever I play Undead. It's hardly difficult, considering how complicit you are in their goals through many quests. Considering what Arthas did to the Forsaken, their anger is hardly misplaced; it's easy to imagine a character hell-bent on revenge for the destruction wrought upon him and those he loved.
I think Blizzard wants to set up a bit of a four-square here: the Alliance and the Horde are not the good guys and bad guys. Rather, each faction contains its good guys and bad guys, so whichever faction you're in, you see a struggle between good and evil that doesn't hinge on the Alliance/Horde binary. Just as the Horde has its Putress and Varimathras, the Alliance has its Grand Admiral Westwind.
This expansion is all about betrayal in the vein of Arthas'. Jaina and Thrall seem to be the protagonists in this story; or perhaps just Jaina. She stays true to her virtue in the face of pressures from both sides, and is the only major story character who seems to be in service of neither Alliance, nor Horde, nor any faction therein, but of all Azeroth. Thrall, virtuous though he usually is, gives in too easily to his advisers and is too easily goaded to violence by Wrynn.
Flint Nov 21st 2008 9:52AM
People who tell others to 'grow up' need to grow up themselves :(. It might be just a game but the player is still a human being with personal feelings and attitudes towards matters.
Gnomercy Nov 21st 2008 10:09AM
In all fairness wiht the Defias you're killing the people who rebuilt Stormwind for less than they would have liked and then went on to murder, loot and pillage many individual towns. Hell Van Cleef planned on razing Stormwind and killing everyone inside it with a giant battleship.
I have very little sympathy for them.
Fojar Nov 21st 2008 10:34AM
"It's begun.
Young heroes... I was once like you. You have come to this place seeking to bring judgement upon the damned. You will venture deep into forgotten lands. You will see wonders beyond imagining.
But be warned. The land itself will rise up against you. Long forgotten terrors will smother your courage. Sacrifice everything as the final darkness falls... in the end, all that awaits you is death.
Only then will you understand - you've been following in my footsteps all along.
So come then, you heroes! Come in all your power and glory! For in the final hour, all must serve the one... true... king."
I guess he wasn't kidding, huh?
AJM1971 Nov 21st 2008 10:42AM
I have to presume that nobody opened the front of the box to read the Nietszche quote regarding what happens when you look into the abyss. Granted, it's been used to promote a few other games (Baldur's Gate first and foremost, IMO), but so far I find it very appropriate.
SlimPickinz96 Nov 21st 2008 11:00AM
Umm this game is based on D&D, you know swords, magic, blunt objects, elves, trolls etc...( obviously)
Normally during a time when swords are used on the battlefield, the wars tend to be gruesome and barbaric.
This isnt Conan, but get with it people. This game is as cartoony as it gets even with its suggested themes.
ArminH Nov 21st 2008 11:48AM
If you have problems performing torture on a quest, then you SHOULD NOT DO IT. Because if you do, and complain about it afterwards, you're effectively employing the "I just followed orders"-excuse, like many Nazis did.
If your conscience raises alarm bells because you're expected to do something morally questionable in a computer game, then you should not compromise your morals. If you do and then later complain about it, ... well then you're just a hypocrite.
Metaphyzxx Nov 21st 2008 11:48AM
Well, Blizz did mention coming into this expansion you'd experience a lot of things that blurred the line between morality and immorality, and come to understand Arthas' descent. I think it's good storytelling in the long run, though painful in it's implementation at times.
Kevin Nov 21st 2008 12:02PM
Wow, people are really getting worked up about some of these quests... I don't see a big deal with these quests at all.
The death knights, for example, are scourge at the beginning. Torturing and killing innocents is what they do! I think that Bliz wants to make sure you remember that.
And the Forsaken (especially the Apothecaries) are supposed to be morally questionable, at best. There are several lines in the game where Tauren speak badly about them. I think players are supposed to get the impression that they are more evil than good.
How good or evil a faction is, isn't just told to the player. Quests are a good way to cement it into players minds. And some players want to play for the evil side. If you doubt that, look at how many copies the GTA series has sold. And if you don't want to RP as an evil player, be a human Paladin or Priest.
Also, I just wanted to mention that the whole game of WoW is full of morally questionable quests. This isn't something new to WoTLK. Many, many, MANY quests (at least on the Horde side) involve massacring populations, collecting heads (or ears or hands,) delivering reagents for plagues, getting revenge on someone, and other similar things.
Alex Nov 21st 2008 12:02PM
This post is worse than the caption contests.
Kevin Nov 21st 2008 12:18PM
What's up with the concern over the Agmar quest? The Orcs really have no pity for traitors. Do "Coward Delivery... Under 30 Minutes or it's Free" to see how they speak of the Alliance traitors. It's part of the lore... they're supposed to be callous to things like that. They have values similar to Klingons on Star Trek. :p
Vierdante Nov 21st 2008 12:49PM
lmao!!! I read about three pages deep before I had to puke in my garbage can from all the weak, over-sensitive sissies crying over how uncomfortable they were doing a torture quest. Please! Grow up and be an adult already.
In real life, you take a job someone else doesn't get. They may be better than you, but may suffer more by not having that job you don't deserve. That's torture.
You buy meals twice the size you need and throw the rest away while millions of people starve to death in other countries. That's torture.
You use up natural resources daily that people fight and die for on a regular basis and you do nothing but complain about the price. That's torture.
You log onto World of Warcraft, spend hours of time neglecting your friends, family, and checkbook but have the tenacity to complain that a game which brings real life war atrocities to life is "too immoral". That's torture.
I cannot even believe for the life of me that anyone would even suggest the immoral nature of video game torture quest when they are probably neglecting their own children, parents, or friends...
If you only had any idea where this country would be without the use of torture, you not only would support it, you would make it a law. If you are torured, whether you knew the information or not, you were still somehow affiliated with the enemy. Guess what! You want to stop torture? Maybe you should convince every radical in the world to mind their own business and stop raping, pillaging, and murdering our wives, children, and friends. If you can do that, I assure you torture won't be necessary.
P.S. Reading all the bleeding heart /cry /cry readers responses was torture.
Tigris Nov 21st 2008 2:04PM
I had little issue torturing these people, to be frank.
The first time I was evil, so it was *supposed* to be wrong.
The second time I was torturing someone who not only deserved it, but was purposely holding information that would lead to an innocent's horrific death.
The third time we were torturing an undead who swore his soul to the Lich King willingly, would torture us himself without a thought if he had the chance, and was withholding information that would lead to the defeat of Thel'zan.
For the real life, there are some people who say torture is *never* justified. They say it flippantly. "Torture is never justified" and they move on. I beg to differ.
And *as* for those people who say they'd *never* torture anyone, we know that's not true. Deep down we all know that we'd torture our fellow human beings for no reason besides some guy in a white coat told us to and we were under mild pressure.