Ready Check: Everything's dead, Dave, part 2
Clearing Raid Content Fast

So what's the secret behind those guilds that have already wiped the floor with Blizzard's current endgame raid content? Is the content's tuning to blame, would they have done it anyway, or do they have special insider knowledge?
Facetious as it may sound, it's all three of these. The sort of guilds that have already cleared everything would have at least tried to do so anyway, regardless of boss encounter knowledge and tuning. It's possible we'd still be seeing TwentyFifth stuck wiping on Patchwerk, had he been ridiculously overtuned -- as it stands, he can cause a lot of pain to mostly-Sunwell geared tanks, but by the time you reach him the sheer amount of loot dropping in Naxx should see your tanks clear with a few upgrades.
The tuning itself is a byproduct of the amount of loot dropping -- while fully Sunwell geared raids do need to make some adjustments to survive in Naxx, upgrades really aren't hard to come by, so by the time you reach Kel'Thuzad your "Sunwell geared" raid... isn't. Having seen the sheer amount of upgrades people have walked away with in just two raid resets, and the corresponding lowering of difficulty of the encounters as DPS, healing and survivability increase, it's not even that surprising that the hardest encounter in the game, Sartharion with 3 drakes up, is entirely doable even now.
This is good news for those guilds planning to enter Naxx in the coming weeks, of course. Even if you only poke at a couple of bosses during your first visit, you'll get some loot that'll make further poking more successful, just like previous raid progression used to be, and if you manage to get a fair few down you'll be showered in purples.
Knowledge of the boss encounters is also a crucial component to defeating them quickly when they go live. Naxxramas itself holds very few surprises to a raid who's already done it at 60, and further practice on beta got people accustomed to the changes that do exist. It's still easy to see, watching someone entirely new to the instance zone in, that there is a lot of challenge contained within its walls -- but for any raid group who put in the time to clear it on beta, doing the same on live isn't a problem strategy-wise. The same goes for Sartharion and Malygos, where novel fight mechanics could have scuppered fast clears, but having done these fights before launch left zero challenge for experienced raiders.

A big question around the fast clearing of content is "why bother?" -- raiders who were waiting for months for new content are now going to be bored again, twiddling their thumbs until the release of Ulduar. Again, a big part of the motivation to clear instances so quickly is to be among the first to do it -- even though this content isn't particularly hard, top raid groups are very proud about their world standing and strive towards high rankings, whether they mean anything or not. People want the flashy "Realm First" titles, they want loot now rather than later, and the raid guild does have to satisfy the hunger of its average member or risk losing them.
Another argument is that there are still challenges to be had in the current raids, with the addition of certain achievements. However, none of these are exactly world news, and while guilds will internally strive to beat the various bonus challenges, we're unlikely to dance in the streets the first time TwentyFifth beats Kel'Thuzad while killing extra abominations. Sartharion with three drakes was labelled the only "hard" encounter, and that's already been defeated by multiple guilds, although the principle is a nice one -- make the boss, in his base state, easily defeatable, but with exponential complexity to satisfy those hungering for something more challenging.

What next?
So what are raiders going to do between now and the magic moment when new content arrives? And what will happen when it does?
Achievement and gear farming is probably the primary goal, repeating the more difficult kills and keeping people interested until they literally have no reason to run the content. Then it's time to level up alts and recruit new people, ready for the inevitable roster changes that happen every time a new instance comes out, and to ensure raid banks are stocked with full consumables in preparation for new bosses to wipe on.
How raid progression on Ulduar goes will be very dependent on the PTRs. If the raid content is available for testing, as every recent raid dungeon has been, then if it's tuned for accessibility it'll simply get steamrolled on the PTR and cleared within hours when it goes live. Thus the top end raiders will never be thoroughly satisfied, unless encounters are designed so there is a 'hard mode' similar to Sartharion that they can focus on.
Gated progression, similar to Sunwell, will halt the flow of boss kills but in an unfortunately artificial way, while designing encounters so they take days to beat by top-end raiders has its problems. Players take time off work, ignore their families and alienate their friends while those who don't try to brute force the encounters get stuck on them forever. The advantage of the current level of content tuning is that you can raid and have a social life, or at least a semblance of one.
The days when the cutting edge took weeks, not hours, to defeat seem well behind us, and for most WoW players that's a good thing. By opening up accessibility Blizzard will achieve their goal of ensuring more people see endgame raiding content, instead of designing encounters that only a few guilds will ever beat.
However, the problem seems to be keeping the hardcore raiding guilds interested -- while some might argue there's no real loss if these people give up, they do serve multiple purposes in the WoW community, from affecting the economy and raiding exposure of their own servers to producing boss guides and testing content. It'll be really interesting to see what happens during the release of Ulduar, and whether the hardcore are satisfied.

So what's the secret behind those guilds that have already wiped the floor with Blizzard's current endgame raid content? Is the content's tuning to blame, would they have done it anyway, or do they have special insider knowledge?
Facetious as it may sound, it's all three of these. The sort of guilds that have already cleared everything would have at least tried to do so anyway, regardless of boss encounter knowledge and tuning. It's possible we'd still be seeing TwentyFifth stuck wiping on Patchwerk, had he been ridiculously overtuned -- as it stands, he can cause a lot of pain to mostly-Sunwell geared tanks, but by the time you reach him the sheer amount of loot dropping in Naxx should see your tanks clear with a few upgrades.
The tuning itself is a byproduct of the amount of loot dropping -- while fully Sunwell geared raids do need to make some adjustments to survive in Naxx, upgrades really aren't hard to come by, so by the time you reach Kel'Thuzad your "Sunwell geared" raid... isn't. Having seen the sheer amount of upgrades people have walked away with in just two raid resets, and the corresponding lowering of difficulty of the encounters as DPS, healing and survivability increase, it's not even that surprising that the hardest encounter in the game, Sartharion with 3 drakes up, is entirely doable even now.
This is good news for those guilds planning to enter Naxx in the coming weeks, of course. Even if you only poke at a couple of bosses during your first visit, you'll get some loot that'll make further poking more successful, just like previous raid progression used to be, and if you manage to get a fair few down you'll be showered in purples.
Knowledge of the boss encounters is also a crucial component to defeating them quickly when they go live. Naxxramas itself holds very few surprises to a raid who's already done it at 60, and further practice on beta got people accustomed to the changes that do exist. It's still easy to see, watching someone entirely new to the instance zone in, that there is a lot of challenge contained within its walls -- but for any raid group who put in the time to clear it on beta, doing the same on live isn't a problem strategy-wise. The same goes for Sartharion and Malygos, where novel fight mechanics could have scuppered fast clears, but having done these fights before launch left zero challenge for experienced raiders.

A big question around the fast clearing of content is "why bother?" -- raiders who were waiting for months for new content are now going to be bored again, twiddling their thumbs until the release of Ulduar. Again, a big part of the motivation to clear instances so quickly is to be among the first to do it -- even though this content isn't particularly hard, top raid groups are very proud about their world standing and strive towards high rankings, whether they mean anything or not. People want the flashy "Realm First" titles, they want loot now rather than later, and the raid guild does have to satisfy the hunger of its average member or risk losing them.
Another argument is that there are still challenges to be had in the current raids, with the addition of certain achievements. However, none of these are exactly world news, and while guilds will internally strive to beat the various bonus challenges, we're unlikely to dance in the streets the first time TwentyFifth beats Kel'Thuzad while killing extra abominations. Sartharion with three drakes was labelled the only "hard" encounter, and that's already been defeated by multiple guilds, although the principle is a nice one -- make the boss, in his base state, easily defeatable, but with exponential complexity to satisfy those hungering for something more challenging.

What next?
So what are raiders going to do between now and the magic moment when new content arrives? And what will happen when it does?
Achievement and gear farming is probably the primary goal, repeating the more difficult kills and keeping people interested until they literally have no reason to run the content. Then it's time to level up alts and recruit new people, ready for the inevitable roster changes that happen every time a new instance comes out, and to ensure raid banks are stocked with full consumables in preparation for new bosses to wipe on.
How raid progression on Ulduar goes will be very dependent on the PTRs. If the raid content is available for testing, as every recent raid dungeon has been, then if it's tuned for accessibility it'll simply get steamrolled on the PTR and cleared within hours when it goes live. Thus the top end raiders will never be thoroughly satisfied, unless encounters are designed so there is a 'hard mode' similar to Sartharion that they can focus on.
Gated progression, similar to Sunwell, will halt the flow of boss kills but in an unfortunately artificial way, while designing encounters so they take days to beat by top-end raiders has its problems. Players take time off work, ignore their families and alienate their friends while those who don't try to brute force the encounters get stuck on them forever. The advantage of the current level of content tuning is that you can raid and have a social life, or at least a semblance of one.
The days when the cutting edge took weeks, not hours, to defeat seem well behind us, and for most WoW players that's a good thing. By opening up accessibility Blizzard will achieve their goal of ensuring more people see endgame raiding content, instead of designing encounters that only a few guilds will ever beat.
However, the problem seems to be keeping the hardcore raiding guilds interested -- while some might argue there's no real loss if these people give up, they do serve multiple purposes in the WoW community, from affecting the economy and raiding exposure of their own servers to producing boss guides and testing content. It'll be really interesting to see what happens during the release of Ulduar, and whether the hardcore are satisfied.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Marc Nov 22nd 2008 5:23PM
I find it really annoying to see people complaining that all the PvE content has been beated in General chat when they themselves are still levelling. They haven't beaten it yet nor will they for many weeks.
And then there are the losers who complain that everything has been dumbed down. What's wrong with changing things if I can play with my friends and have fun? Isn't that all that matters? WoW isn't supposed to be some impossible mathematical challenge.
Also, why is Mankirk so popular?
JBurg Nov 22nd 2008 6:02PM
Why is Mankrik so popular? Have you never played Horde? Have you not been to the Barrens?
Hmm, I wonder if this isn't such a big deal anymore with the popularity of thottbot and wowhead and such. I remember back in the day you could have formed a raid group every hour to go searching for Mankrik's wife.
Punjab Nov 22nd 2008 6:54PM
This first rule of WoW is: You do NOT talk about Mankrik, nor his wife, nor any of his family members.
Marc Nov 23rd 2008 4:47AM
I do know about him of course. I was wondering about his popularity as the quest giver of one of the most annoying quests.
Firestride Nov 22nd 2008 5:32PM
It seems like the answer could be to add a third tier of difficulty on top of Heroic, but you'd have to come up with what the reward would be. Or would it be enough to just making them really freaking hard and then see who could actually do it?
Cat Nov 22nd 2008 6:04PM
All that was required was a proper hard gear reset. Outland equipment can't be equipped in Northrend as it isn't suitable in the cold (or whatever). Problem solved.
Kellerune Nov 22nd 2008 6:12PM
Blizzard would be an idiot to take away all the gear people got from raids like Sunwell. Doing something like that is just punching people in the face and then taking all their clothes and running away with it crazily laughing. If someone did that to me, I wouldn't pay them to continue to play the game.
Ekimus Nov 22nd 2008 6:13PM
Changing hardcore purples in BC for base level greens was different. Those base level greens were considered better gear.
You can't take all of a player's gear away and replace it with lower-quality gear. That would truly negate any work (raiding, questing, crafting, etc...)
sephirah Nov 22nd 2008 6:14PM
So, if Outland gear cannot be equipped in Northrend as it isn't suitable in the cold, any char 68+ must go there... naked?
Cat Nov 22nd 2008 6:27PM
@ Sephira:
Say you get a starter set of class-appropriate green gear in the mail when you upgrade your account, similar to DKs. Or there's a green northrend starter gear vendor outside each of the banks. There are dozens of ways to implement it.
Qpally Nov 23rd 2008 3:47AM
You are absolutely right about a hard gear reset. (but not about "taking" gear away, that's dumb)
If they had tuned the leveling gear so that T4 was replaced by 74, T5 by 76, and T6 by 78, or something similar to that, these world firsts would not be happening so quickly and the content would last longer.
Newsflash: Hardcore QQ leads to Hardcore QQ. If there hadn't been such an outcry by hardcore raiders to not replace epic gear quickly with Northrend gear, then raiders would have had to grind out full gear sets from Heroics before standing a chance in raid content tuned for level 80+ gear.
Instead, Northrend is a joke. Leveling is dull and pointless as I vendor all the quest rewards and stick to my current epics. Mobs go down like paperdolls. Group/elite quests are entirely soloable. Northrend just feels like a chore, something to complete without feeling.
DanH Nov 23rd 2008 9:04AM
I'm not sure it's necessarily a problem that Sunwell-geared characters have an easy time leveling in Northrend. If you're Sunwell geared, chances are you're not much interested in leveling *anyway*.
It strikes me that the big problem here is that, unlike regular leveling content, endgame content is effectively overwritten whenever an expansion comes out. I can still run my level 50 Warlock around Tanaris as much as I like, but Raiders can only ever use the current end-game content. It means they get less out of expansions than people who are interested in the leveling experience.
Guapa Nov 24th 2008 7:44AM
Opally, maybe you should consider taking a few months off the game, maybe until the next expansion, if you feel nothing while levelling.
I'm 78, still have my BC gear except the weapon and I found the whole game quite easy so far myself. Still I love it like crazy! The easy quests allow me to concentrate on the wonderful atmosphere and enjoy the story which is presented way better that it used to. And some of the quest lines are so well done that I actually read the quest log !!!
If you feel nothing, you should really consider stopping or go check with your therapist. He can help you overcome these problems and give you a happy partnership.
Kisheria Nov 22nd 2008 6:17PM
Nice Red Dwarf reference, Jennie. ;D
Jack Spicer Nov 22nd 2008 6:17PM
I think Blizzard needs to eliminate all "realm first" achievements for content they put on Beta.
Cat Nov 22nd 2008 6:19PM
Yet people happily put their epic flying mounts away for 7 levels.
I'd happily stash all my T5 gear in the bank and walk around Northrend in clownsuit greens if it meant everyone was on a level footing and the content could be properly balanced.
The alternative is cruising through the content and having no really challenging raids until the next patch. That demotivates me as a raider more than a gear reset.
Cy Nov 22nd 2008 6:22PM
While I see your points about why the hardest-of-hardcore raiders provide some value to the game, I'm very glad that Blizzard has made their needs a much lower priority than in years past.
Losing the top 0.1% of players to boredom with the game's difficulty is much better than losing the interest of masses of people who really wish to experience raiding content at the much smaller/more casual pace that Wrath has enabled.
tatarynowicz Nov 23rd 2008 12:14AM
Bump. I don't really care if 25thNov beats all the content in the game in a week, or in a year. What's important for me is if my casual guild will be able to raid all the raids in game and have fun while doing that. If the answer is 'yes', Blizzard has done a great job with the expansion.
This is comming from someone who has cleared ZA only after the nerfs. I've never seen the inside of MH nor BT, let alone Sunwell (I've seen the inside of The Eye solo on my rogue ^^).
I want to be able to enjoy all the game's content. Thank you Blizzard for making it possible.
hold up Nov 25th 2008 4:20PM
While I agree with the casual guilds being able to see all the content is a good thing, I also think that making it "too easy" is going to remove that feeling of accomplishment for the guilds that go through "progression" and not steamrolling. Before the pre-wrath nerf patch my guild was just at the start of Hyjal/BT. Being able to go into those places made it feel like we were doing something right. The content felt "epic". Downing a boss after several wipes felt like a great accomplishment. We weren't a top guild. Maybe top 30% on the server at most. Most of the hardcore guilds were already farming sunwell. But it still felt epic to us. Even going in after the nerf patch and taking down Kalecgos felt great, because it takes extreme coordination and Sunwell was famous for being difficult. It just feels like the current content won't have that "epic" feel to it. But who knows. I may be wrong. I'll find out this weekend if we steamroll the content or if we spend most of our time wiping. I just hope it doesnt turn out like Kara was post 3-patch. That was like being showered in purples for under an hours worth the work.
Tuhljin Nov 22nd 2008 7:46PM
The "end game" content in the game now is really the "beginning raiding" content of the near future. It *shouldn't* be very difficult for bleeding-edge raiders! They aren't its target audience.