Hi Arthas! Want some help slaughtering the innocent?

It's a question that people used to ask about Black Morass a lot too (indeed, the first boss, Chrono Lord Deja, will ask you that himself), but Black Morass was a little more cut-and-dried. Medivh unquestionably cost many lives in bringing the first Horde through his portal, but if the orcs never set foot in Azeroth, then the world would have fallen to the Legion. The Bronze Dragonflight is unusually blunt about the cause-and-effect; war breaks out among the human kingdoms, the Alliance never occurs, the new Horde is not present at Hyjal to defend against Archimonde's forces -- indeed, the Legion may very well have swept the world without Hyjal ever occurring. So, despite the destruction wrought by the first Horde's entry into Azeroth (and you could argue, because of it), Medivh must succeed in opening the portal.
I'm not sure it's quite that straightforward with "Old Strat" -- and questions about whether it is prompt some thought-provoking questions concerning Azeroth's past, present, and future.
Now, I haven't done Culling of Stratholme yet, so anyone who has, feel free to chime in, but these are the reasons that my guildies and I came up with for why Arthas' descent into troubling moral waters can't be stopped when it starts:
The Bronze Dragonflight just doesn't want to mess with the timestream.
Reason enough, and the reason given to you by Chromie for both quests she'll give you for the dungeon. Bad things happen when you mess around with time, and that's the excuse also given by a member of the Kirin Tor, Archmage Timear, when he sends you to old Strat for the daily dungeon.

Do they? I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the Keepers of Time could come up with a concrete reason for why Arthas can't deviate from his path to Icecrown, or if they had jack to say about what Nozdormu is really up to. More on this in a moment.
If Arthas never travels to Northrend and/or gets Frostmourne, there's no one to: a). provide crucial information for Illidan when he needed it, or b). stop Illidan later.
Illidan destroys Tichondrius, the former leader of the Nathrezim with the Burning Legion, in part because of information Arthas gives him concerning the skull of Gul'dan (which Illidan goes on to consume, thus becoming the demon/elf hybrid you see in the Burning Crusade cinematic). If Illidan hadn't run into Arthas at that point, Tichondrius would almost certainly have killed off the Night Elves and then wiped out everything else he could find.
But Illidan and Arthas don't actually like each other, and they like each other even less after the Legion realizes that Nerz'hul (the actual Lich King) has gone rogue and that the Scourge are no longer under their control. If Illidan had succeeded in destroying the Frozen Throne during the events of Warcraft III, the Scourge would have ceased to exist as a counterweight to the Legion's power (bad) and Illidan, still smarting over his long imprisonment and in command of Kael's elves and Vashj's naga, would not have had an effective foil (also bad).
You can see a late example of this in the demons battling the undead around the Shattered Sun Offensive's staging area at Sunwell Plateau; it was a lot better for these two powers to be occupied with each other than it was for them to be occupied with us.

People tend to refer to Arthas as the Lich King without acknowledging that he's (at best) half of what occupies that suit of armor. Ner'zhul, the onetime elder shaman of the Orc clans on Draenor, is the real brains of the outfit, and nobody knows his real agenda. He's accomplished great evil over the course of his existence -- but not all of it was intentional, and he tried to stop the rise of the first Horde after he realized he'd been duped by Kil'jaeden. His actions as the Lich King may well conceal a higher purpose -- though, given the destruction he's wrought, that's a pretty hard sell -- but there's no denying that the entity once known as Ner'zhul the kindly shaman has been entirely devoid of compassion or pity over the span of his existence.
Some greater threat yet faces the world that requires the Alliance and the Horde to remain united.
Somewhat doubtful in light of the events concerning Angrathar but still a possibility.
Nozdormu -- if he is in fact the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight as is hinted ingame -- is trying to alter the past because Arthas plays a role in his (Nozdormu's) death.
I actually find this to be the most interesting possibility by far. If Nozdormu is responsible for the Infinite Dragonflight, he's playing pretty fast and loose with a number of important events in Azerothian history, somewhat akin to the fashion in which Malygos has gone nuts on the use of magic.
Nozdormu knows the time and place of his own death and may be using the Infinite Dragonflight to disrupt the events that lead to it. There are four events that players are currently able to affect in order to restore the timeways: Thrall's escape from Durnholde, the opening of the portal that first brought the orcs to Azeroth, the events of Mount Hyjal and the end of Archimonde, and now Arthas' descent into evil. I don't know whether there's a common thread linking all four events beyond the obvious need for the existence of the modern Horde, the existence of the modern Alliance, and some sort of vague note on Arthas' rise as the Lich King. Beware, Nozdormu; you too could become a raid boss.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Expansions, The Burning Crusade, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
SaintStryfe Nov 23rd 2008 5:16PM
Interesting thought, but no. The darkness of the Lich King stole Arthas. Very deep down, Arthas is searching for a way out, I think.
Yes, this is very Darth Vadery.
Steve Nov 23rd 2008 4:26PM
On Nozmordu, what if instead of using the infinite dragonflight to prevent his death it was the other way around?
He knows when and how he's gonna die because the Titans showed it to him, but what if that was more of a self-termination plan imprinted on him. To give him "mortality" as best as the Titans can give him.
The infinite dragonflight would just be part of the plan to lure out a band of heroes to bring about his end one day.
JSG Nov 24th 2008 12:25AM
The reason is VERY simple, and has been spelled out from the very start- Chromie tells you that alterations to major events in the timeline will break it... causing the destruction of time/space/puppies/kittens/etc.
So while anyone sane may want to kill Thrall rather than rescue him (FTH!!), such an alteration will destroy everything. Likewise, we may not agree with Arthas and his actions... it already happened. Deal with it.
So while the causality issue might attribute motives, etc... the simple fact that altering the timeline destroys the universe kind of removes motives in a clear way (you are either pro-destroy the universe, or against it).
Assuming Chromie is being honest, of course: we aren't . But overall, questgivers have been very honest about their motivations (clearly unrealistic, but obviously it makes the lore easy to track).
Danel Nov 23rd 2008 6:52PM
Hmm. One possible explanation is that, though Arthas' actions here were terrible, they were nonetheless necessary. If he hadn't culled Stratholme, the Scourge would've been a bit bigger, which could well have tipped the balance at one battle or other. As cruel as killing innocents was, he was essentially right that there was no other option.
A slightly more "out there" theory is a kind of alternate history of what might have happened if we don't intervene...
After Prince Arthas announces his intention to cull the innocent civilians of Stratholme, Jaina and Uther leave in horror, refusing to participate in such monstrous actions. But Arthas was too late - before he can make significant headway into the population, they become undead, and he is swiftly overwhelmed and rent limb from limb.
Horrified and guilty at leaving her ex-boyfriend to die, Jaina isn't exactly at the top of her game later - maybe she decides to stand and fight the Scourge rather than sailing west, or maybe she just gets killed due to her distraction in a later battle. Without Jaina, the Burning Legion wins the Battle of Mount Hyjal, if it even gets that far.
Another possibility is Uther... shamed by his abandonment of his former pupil and prince, Uther vows to see the Undead Scourge stopped in Arthas' name. He goes a little too far... and ultimately ends up becoming a much more dangerous Lich King than Arthas is.
Draxle Nov 23rd 2008 7:38PM
I'm inclined to agree with Danel... what if it had been somebody else who merged with the Lich King, instead of Arthas? Before his fall, Arthas was not among the top tier for most powerful characters in the game. What if, denied the chance to merge with Arthas, Ner'zhul sought out another corrupted hero to join with? If Illidan, already powerful after his consumption of the Skull of Gul'dan, took Arthas's place, we would have had a far more dangerous Lich King than the one that currently exists.
Camillaes Nov 23rd 2008 7:04PM
Actually, a notable thing about the Culling of Stratholme (I've done it a few times now) is that you, as the player, don't kill anyone innocent. You go after the waves of undead, but Arthas stays at the gate and kills the terrified townspeople fleeing. You can see it if you look away from the ghouls you're smacking now and then. Perhaps Blizzard thought that having to kill unturned Stratholme residents would be a touch too much.
The instance is very interesting to play, and not too hard on heroic either.
Balius Nov 23rd 2008 7:40PM
Deathknight quests involve players cutting down cowering women in droves. I don't think Blizzard became squeamish. Rather, the timeline says that Arthas kills the innocents. If the players do it instead, it doesn't really reflect on Arthas.
Shin Nov 23rd 2008 7:28PM
I think there is another reason why Arthas must do what he has to do, namely Jaina.
It's the Culling of Stratholme that seperates Jaina from Arthas. It is then that Jaina takes part of the Alliance to Kalimdore because Medvih the Prophet asks her to.
Without this split there wouldn't have been any humans in Kalimdor and the events leading up to the defeat of the Legion wouldn't have come to pass.
squig_masta Nov 23rd 2008 7:49PM
@Camillaes I don't think Blizzard specifically designed it so we wouldn't have to kill the innocent out of fear that we'd be squeamish. Not only were they unafraid to let us kill the innocent the first time around in Warcraft 3, but as any horde player who's so much as talked to an apothecary member can attest, we've done much much worse since. We weren't there the first time killing the dead, so maybe the bronze dragons want us to only kill who we need to so things happen as close as possible to the 'right' way. Any human we kill is one less person Arthas kills, and I guess every soul counts when you're going down the dark road.
@Everyone else, I think we're over analyzing this. Can't preserving the timeline be important just for the sake of preserving the timeline? Did we learn nothing from The Simpons' Treehouse of Horror V? If a bunch of heroes from the alliance stumbled on to the Caverns of Time before the third war and were asked to help save Mediv, they'd probably be just as confused as we are as to why we need to save this man. There could be a million ramifications to messing with the past and second-guessing destiny, so do like Chronie and just say no to @#$%ing with the timeline.
Yes I have been waiting this entire post to bust out that line. It was so worth it.
Killchrono Nov 23rd 2008 8:15PM
My theory about the Infinite Dragonflight is that their motives might be intentionally good, but mislead.
Think about their dialogue in the Dark Portal and Stratholme boss encounters. The first boss in Dark Portal convinces you to stop and let Medivh die because of all the lives that would be saved - of course, you know better because the Bronze Dragons told you the alternative would be worse. Likewise in Strat, Chrono Lord Epoch announces to Arthas how he is going down a dark path and they plan on stopping him.
In other words, the Infinite Dragonflight may be trying to change the past because they think they're HELPING the timeways. But due to short-sightedness, not being as attuned to the timeways as the Brzone, or perhaps ignorance, they don't realise their actions have far greater consequences.
Then there's Nozdormu. We all know there's a chance he's the hidden leader of the Infinite. He could be ordering them to go change the timeways. Why he would do that when he knows the consequences? Who knows. Probably one of many reasons. He could have been corrupted by the Old Gods (think War of the Ancients Trilogy, where they were able to seal him away), or maybe he's gone rogue like Malygos. Or potentially, since he knows the hour of his own death, he's interfering with the timelines and forcing people to stop and - eventually - kill him, to serve a greater purpose.
I have other theories relating to the Infinite, but this is the jist of it. It's not set in stone, but considering what little we know of their motives and now Nozdormu's involvement, this is what I can piece together.
Codexx Nov 23rd 2008 8:41PM
I like the idea that Hyjal was one of the later efforts, but you get sent to Stratholme because the invasion there requires you to be more powerful for some reason.
Also, definitely he needs to be a raid boss, I'd find it hilariously ironic if he saw us, the players, killing him, and he's trying to disrupt the formation of the Alliance and the Horde, or prevent us from going to Northrend, etc, all the things making us more powerful, attempting to stop us from ultimately killing him, only for it to make us stronger yet.
Reno66 Nov 24th 2008 3:38AM
Ok, here's my two cents. If Arthas had failed in the culling of stratholme he would've been captured by the guards and most likely executed. If he's killed off Jaina doesn't feel desperate enough to go to Medivh, not only that but Illidan would've never heard of the skull of Gul'Dan thus allowing Tichondrius to go about his destructive ways with the scourge. Kel'Thuzad never would've been resurrected, preventing Archimonde from arriving, thus making hyjal, another instance you must preserve a paradox because Archimonde never made it to Azeroth because Kel'Thuzad wasn't resurrected! So they would have had to find alternative methods to summon Archimonde and the Legion. Assuming they do then Hyjal WOULD take place except Tichondrius would have been there helping as well, in addition to that then the night elves would have been destroyed so the final attack wherein the wisps go to kill him would not happen because Tichondrius killed the night elves. Zomg it's a paradox! Seriously it'd throw the time line outta whack. Tichondrius wouldn't have been killed by Illidan, Illidan wouldn't have came to power in Outland or try to stop Arthas because Kil'Jaeden told him too. Thus Black Temple never would have happened, Akama would have stayed unable to retake the black temple from Magtheridon. Kael'Thas wouldn't have formed the allegiance with Illidan and eventually the Legion. It would've been a big mess. Here's the best part in my opinion, the scourge wouldn't have to focus on by Sunwell AND NOT ONLY THAT, but they wouldn't have to worry about Archimonde coming with the legion, thus allowing them more time to build up their forces and take over Azeroth, defeating the Legion, BUT Arthas wouldn't have merged with Ner'Zhul to form the Lich King, so someone else would've had to take his place! Illidan maybe in his desperation? He consumed the skull of Gul'Dan becoming a demon, what's to say he wouldn't have became the lich king if Arthas weren't there first?
Something to think about.
Reinette Nov 24th 2008 4:13AM
In my opinion, Norzdomu is behind the Infinite Flight, but it's not that he's trying to change time in these disastrous ways. Or rather, the actual changing of the time isn't his goal, but rather the attempt.
Norzdomu can see all of time. Therefore, he already knows that his Infinite Dragonflight fails to disrupt the timestreams. He knows that heroes will arrive with the assistance of the Keepers of Time to intervene. He knows that he will lose. But he also knows that he's supposed to lose.
I tend to agree with the theory that the person who kills Norzdomu is you (or me, or whoever). Norzdomu knows this, and he's doing the things which are required of him in order to orchestrate his own death (not to mention all the other things you accomplish, such as killing Illidan, banishing Kil'jaeden and defeating the Lich King and Yogg-Saron in some manner).
The most important thing to remember about Norzdomu is that he knows how all this is going to end. The way I see it, it is impossible to change time because he knows how it will come out. Everything that is happening now is happening because it was written. Even if some timestream did get disrupted, it was *supposed to get disrupted, and the resulting effects are the intended course of time.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Nov 24th 2008 2:00PM
If however he is corrupted then he's not using his entire faculities. This means, he MIGHT not know how it will end if all he sees are distorted images in his mad skull. This is provided he is corrupted or has gone insane. For all we know he doesn't know anymore because he's following his own train of thought on how the world should be. If that's the case, and he's gone rogue, chaos is indeed what will follow.
If he is sane, then I’m not exactly sure what his motivation is unless he consciously wants death.
totemdeath Nov 24th 2008 4:49AM
Consider this concept:
1) You are the head of a dragonflight responsible for time itself. If you know the exact date of your own death, why not move the timeline one day past it?
2) You are a developer at Blizzard wondering where the franchise is going to go after you you dispatch Arthas, and most likely take on the Emerald Dream. The answer...the future!
jazz Nov 24th 2008 7:47AM
Well i see one thing there that conects all the events.
Infinite dragonflight is trying to let BL to take over Azeroth. Its not like not allowing Scorge´s creation. Its really important for them (ID) to make Azeroth fall to the BL. Maybe because they dont wanna LK to arise.
LK was a pawn that is now hidden in Azeroth and locks all ways in so he can be hidden for ever or until he is strong enought to face BL over in the void.
BL is one side of a coin while light (naaru) and creation (Titans) are the second side. And here comes Scorge and LK somehow mess with this 2-side system. We dont know yet if LK wants to fight only BL or he wants to fight the other side (titans and naaru) too.
ID sees what we do not, LK sees alot of things too and nobody knows what (i say even Arthas dont knows what LK really wants), BL is blinded by fury and hate, naaru are blinded by light and fight with BL, Titans are gone.
And there are Old gods in this game aswell!
lokikins Nov 24th 2008 9:11AM
Another answer is that, while his methods may have sucked and he may have been a little to eager to do it, he was right that the entire city was about to become zombies. Sure he could have waited until they changed to start the killing but as soon as you go in a demon spawns and tells you they are all his now and they turn into undead so... you're really just cleaning up the mess. I think only two dudes get killed before they turn. Arthas is still crazy but he happened to be right about the impending zombification.
Forelornhope7 Nov 24th 2008 9:44AM
So, I Just wanted to leave a comment refering to people talking about the whole "Good left in arthas", Darth Vader thing. Not Going to happen, IMO.
There is a quest chain that i will refer to here
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?quest=13403
You take a quest from a Ghost of a boy named Matthias Lehner (Notice the name Anagram for Arthas Menethil?) Anyway, Basically You find Artha's heart and Tirion declares that the hear has no remainder of Arthas old self left, and Stikes it, (Dropping Arthas to 30% :D) Anyway.
No more good Arthas only Bad. So no Vader Story, Its more of a Davy Jones thing from Pirates, (Without the whole AMG IM A MONSTER NOW)
Anyway, Enjoy
Todd Nov 24th 2008 10:17AM
Ever consider that the events of the past, as seen in the Caverns of Time, never did occur as portrayed. Perhaps, Medivh really did fail and Thrall never did escape. Perhaps, Nozdormu is baiting us heroes to go in and make these changes for him, which will in turn affect future events. Nozdormu could be plucking events out of time that didn't turn out, really, the way we know it and wants us to make these subtle changes for him... they'll influence down the line. We could all be patsies.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Nov 24th 2008 12:02PM
On a strange tangent:
It would be funny (strange) if there was a corruption within the Bronze dragon forces and they actually wanted us to STOP Arthas and we ended up killing everyone instead.