Ghostcrawler on long term defense changes
Ghostcrawler weighed in on the intention and existence of the defense statistic yesterday. He makes two interesting criticisms of the philosophy behind defense:- It might eventually prove a problem that defense functions both as a tanking statistic and prevents you from fighting mobs that are a higher level than your character.
- Balance might be easier to achieve if defense provided mitigation and not avoidance.
When Ghostcrawler says that defense serves double duty he's talking about two areas. The first area is defense serving as a check against the level mobs you're fighting. If your defense isn't high enough, you're going to get your face crit off and eventually crushed. This is why level 80 tanks need 540 defense to go and tank mobs three levels higher than them.
The second area is defense serves a double duty in is its ability to provide raw tanking statistics. These include things such as block, dodge, parry, and miss. The more defense you have, the better those statistics are on your character. What these do exactly is beyond the scope of the article, but needless to say they're important to tanks.
So when GC says that these two combinations might be a little awkward he's talking about the interwoven nature of defense. However we can't exactly be sure what in this combination is awkward in his mind. My guess is that he's referring to this one "catch all" statistic that defense is. It is so important to each of those two areas that if a person wanted too, or needed to, focus on one statistic through gear it would be (relatively) more difficult to do so rather than focusing on them all. Further, having this catch all statistic serves to limit encounter design to some extent and presents odd situations.
An odd situation is a "boss" mob being three levels higher than you, yet tuned to level 60 damage. Ie: Onyxia.
The other insight Ghostcrawler gives into defense comes along the same lines, that it provides both mitigation and avoidance. As stated above, defense increases block, dodge, parry, and miss. If it only increase block they might have an easier time balancing classes and abilities across the board.
If you look at the four tanking classes (Druid, Death Knight, Paladin, and Warrior) you can see the different ways some of these statistics play out. Druids like to have a lot of dodge, but block does nothing for them. Death Knights like to have a lot of parry, but block does nothing for them and dodge isn't the most desirable statistic. Paladins are happy with block (to some extent), but they're not really avoidance tanks. Warriors can come up with gear combinations to use all three.
The above paragraph will probably get some loud and proud disagreement based on individual's tanking style and opinions, and that's okay. Nonetheless, it does show how the statistic could use greater fine tuning in the balancing act across classes.
It's interesting to note that defense serves the Warrior class the best in its versititly based on gear and ability rotation. It goes to show that defense as a statistic is more a throwback to vanilla WoW when Warriors were the de facto tanks.
With these bits of philosophical underpinnings in mind, Ghostcrawler does say that changing some things is a possibility. However a change to defense that would solve the above is something that would change the fundamental game mechanics. That is likely something we'll only see in the next expansion (if ever).
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Death Knight






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
econ Nov 25th 2008 11:10AM
I think we should go away with the way defence works atm and throw in mitigation
lownwolf Nov 25th 2008 11:17AM
It's always been my understanding, and i may very well be wrong, that with the current Druid tanking abilities, defense is a stat we need not focus on. We currently have a talent that makes us uncrittable to bosses and we get a better dodge bonus from agility. So for gear choices I always focus on stacking agi/stam and any extra defense is just a bonus.
I am relatively new to druid tanking, and I very well could be wrong. What happened to all those useful articles on druids? did we lose a wowinsider writer?
saxamaphone Nov 25th 2008 11:31AM
Yeah. Used to be that druids would have 2.6% chance to be crit from bosses after you maxxed SotF. Pretty obtainable through defense (415) or some resil (forget the number), or a combination of the two. Block is useless, parry is useless, and the dodge it gives is marginal. As you said, agility is godly for druids, even moreso now. If you stacked agility, you were pretty dodgy, and you could have just your minimum required def/resil. Thats why pvp gear was so good for feral druids, because even a couple pieces made you crit immune, and the stam on them is outstanding. (Not to mention the green armor values).
Now that reaching the armor cap is a thing of the past, and crit immunity is given through talents, druids should focus on stam, agility, agility and agility. Oh, and agility. You do not need to go after defense (though it does up your chance to be missed a bit).
Heilig Nov 25th 2008 11:35AM
You are correct. Blizzard realized a) bears only really get benefit from the crit reduction and dodge from defense, making it a partially wasted stat and therefore over budgeted for them, and b) gear consolidation is impossible as long as leather gear with defense exists.
Survival of the fittest was changed to make it possible to use high stam rogue gear for tanking, therefore defense is unnecessary for druids.
Caelean@Akama Nov 25th 2008 3:03PM
They rescaled a bunch of the stats with the new expansion.
Dodge and Agility are now about on par for reducing damage. (i.e. +1 dodge rating reduces the same as +1 agi.)
Defense is about 60-70% as good as dodge, but due to their new "Diminishing Returns" equation, it keeps getting better as you raise your other stats. Eventually, defense mitigates more than dodge or agility on a point-for-point basis.
Agility is still somewhat preferred because it increases crit and attack power, but for pure mitigation, stack all 3 stats (and armor.)
Angus Nov 25th 2008 7:25PM
Everyone here is forgetting the other part of defense.
It increases your chance to be missed.
Let that sink in.
No damage.
No worries about stacking agility lowering this stat with DR.
It makes bosses and mobs just plain miss you.
When you get an extra 3-4% miss chance from something, that is pure joy for a healer.
Druids want dodge. But there will come a point where getting defense is actually superior. The DR on the dodge chance from agility and dodge increases will be so high that the dodge you get from defense and the miss chance will be better.
This number is like ridiculous, but it does exist.
If you have a defense trinket that is better than nothing, take it. It may not be the best item there, but it will do until you get that one.
Neirin Nov 26th 2008 4:24AM
yeah, as a druid, we're immune to crits against raid bosses by talents and since we can't block or parry even the avoidance aspect of defense is only half as useful to us as a warrior. Frankly, when considering tank gear I would consider dps stats like str before looking at def.
Ironhide Nov 25th 2008 11:19AM
I think the way it modifies avoidance is part of the problem and it should modify mitigation.
It needs to compare your current defense with some relationship of the bosses level and determine if your mitigation (over all) improves or gets worse vs that target.
If your defense is over the "magic number" for a boss of that level, your mitigation vs that boss is increased, ie you take less damage.
if your defense is low compared to the magic number from that boss, you take more damage.
that way defense applies to all tanks equally, it takes effect AFTER all other mitigating has applied, after armor, parry, dodge, block etc etc.
Obviously it needs diminishing returns, in both directions (ie damage increase and damage dcrease).
Superthrust Nov 25th 2008 11:21AM
honestly...this ghostcrawler lameo....where did he come from!? nothing heard from him up until the talk of wotlk started heavy...
rosencratz Nov 25th 2008 11:25AM
Are you joking? If so you forgot your wink emote.
Since Ghostcrawler hit the scene we've had more feedback from Blizz than we've had in years, he's a gift horse, stop inspecting his mouth.
Ted Nov 25th 2008 11:27AM
He's been with the company for a long time; only started posting as a blue when the Wrath Alpha began-ish
Superthrust Nov 25th 2008 11:35AM
well, thank you Ted. I voted down rosencratz post cause all i wanted was a seriious straight answer. I am aware that ghostcrawler has been posting more and has been a kinda, heralding voice of bliz for the community. I am glad he is answering questions and going into detail about stuff like this and not ignoring crap like the other blues. But, saying that, i did not need a boyish answer and didn't deserve to be downvoted.
Beatphreek Nov 25th 2008 11:52AM
You posted a boyish (lameo is actually more childish than boyish) question and you got the response your question warranted. Phrase your questions more maturely if you want a mature response. Lame-o!
Ktok Nov 25th 2008 11:54AM
Next time try asking your question like an adult and perhaps you'll get adult replies.
Superthrust Nov 25th 2008 2:08PM
oh, im sorry. I wasn't aware that asking where a person came from, just out of the blue was boyish. Seriously. Not everyone pays attention to the flaming antics of the forums, and knows EVERYTHING about the beta/alpha...or cares for that matter.
All i stated was "Who he was" and "Where he came from all of a sudden". And as for the lame-o statement, it was meant for appearing all of a sudden and taking the show from all the other blues. In the beginning, it was Eyonix, and then Horton for the ptr and now Ghostcrawler and a way more strict ptr staff.
Maybe the forums here are nothing but flaming boyish antics as well and conforming with a band wagon of people who think they are cool by outstretching their e-peens and hoping others see their logic in knocking down a persons legitimate questions.
Eunherjar Nov 27th 2008 11:11AM
You just completely missed the point. Yes you were asking a very valid given when GC did start posting regualrly but you did in a dickish manner by saying "this GC lameo". So don't be suprised when someone get's annoyed at you given GC's reputation within the WoW community.
Einherjar Nov 27th 2008 11:13AM
Damnit. My poor typing skills strike again. guess i'm the lameo now XD
wolfdust Nov 25th 2008 11:23AM
I'm a pally tank and none of the stats mean anything to me until i'm at max level. then i aim for the necessary rating which is the 540 now. It does seem overly complicated. It would be cooler if you could gear how you wanted rather than what you have to.
Heilig Nov 25th 2008 11:38AM
YEAH! You should be able to tank Naxx with 12K health and like 4K attack power, that way you can RAWK THE DEEPS.
You're a retard. Tanks wear tank gear. if you're not bright enough to figure out what is necessary for tanking, then you shouldn't be tanking anyway. Tanking requires a modicum of intelligence and awareness, and if you can't be bothered to learn about what stats are useful to tanks, you should just stick to ret.
Ktok Nov 25th 2008 11:54AM
Within reason though, right? You shouldn't be able to tank in high +Crit gear with no tanking stats. That would be silly.