Ask a Lore Nerd: The heads and tails of the Horde
Welcome to Ask a Lore Nerd, where each week blogger and columnist Alex Ziebart answers your questions about the lore and history of the World of Warcraft. Ask your questions in the comments section below, and we'll try to answer it in a future edition.This week on Ask a Lore Nerd, we're only answering a small number of questions, because they're really good ones and I want to dork out over them a little. Let's get started, shall we?
Mornash asked...
Speaking of Garrosh Hellscream, what do you think Blizzard has in store for us with his story. They're portraying him like his father was, a bloodthirsty, arrogant, loose cannon. Are they going to have him repeat past mistakes? Maybe bring about another downfall? Or will Saurfang and Thrall get through to him and have him ultimately become a hero?
I'm not so sure that Garrosh will be redeemed or convinced to chill out or any of that, but I won't say it's impossible either. First reason for that, he's one of the catalysts to the "putting the war back in Warcraft" thing that most people have wanted for so long, and the writers have decided was necessary.
Two, Thrall needs Someone to butt heads with or he becomes just a figurehead character. He exists, but you stop caring after awhile. There's obviously a ton of corruption in the Horde and plenty of people going against his vision, but you can't fight an idea or a concept the fun, literal sense. Thrall can't fight against the Orcs that want to return to the old ways in a way that players will find exciting unless there is a face to that concept. Garrosh is the embodiment of the Orcs that long for the days of the Old Horde. A struggle against Garrosh is a struggle for the direction of the New Horde. By overcoming Garrosh, Thrall would take another step toward reforming the Orcs, and we'd experience it in a way that's exciting, not just propaganda and other boring stuff that nobody would care about in an MMO.
On the other hand, Thrall's losses are a gain for the Orcs that want to be savage murderers. I think Thrall's loss in Orgrimmar kind of drives that point home. Thrall the modernist more or less lost his duel with Garrosh, and that's leading to a rise in the 'old ways' among the Horde. Thrall lost the battle, but he hasn't lost the war. That sort of thing. It's an ongoing struggle, with Thrall and Garrosh representing the two halves of the Orcish Horde. Right now, Thrall's losing ground. They haven't lost yet, but it's gotten to the point where a civil war is looking like a real possibility.
havitech asked...
This one has been nagging me for a while: What the hell is the Scarlet Onslaught doing with Death Knights in their ranks?
This little stretch of story is way too cool for me to spoil just yet, so my advice is to just keep questing. All will be revealed in time. Let's just say the Crusade doesn't really learn from past mistakes.
Drakthorn asked...
So what exactly happened at the end of the Death Knight starting quests? There is something under Light's Hope, Darion sees daddy and turns on Arthas, Tirion tries to bubble but Arthas uses Death Grip, then Tirion somehow cleanses Ashbringer and punches Arthas in the face releasing only the DKs of Acherus.
The two most important things to remember are that Light's Hope Chapel is Holy ground due to whatever is beneath it (we don't know for sure yet), and that Ashbringer almost reflects the life cycle of a Naaru. It might actually be crafted from a Naaru but that's still speculation right now. The point is that it mirrors the same life cycle. It's a blade of Light, until it's been 'killed' at which point it drops to a blade of Shadow/Darkness. When it has had time to heal or is pumped full of holy power (iike you see in Old Hillsbrad), it is 'resurrected' and becomes a blade of Light again.
Light's Hope Chapel being Holy Ground weakened the Lich King himself. He was using the Death Knights of Acherus as fodder to draw out and weaken Tirion Fordring, because he couldn't take Tirion out himself on that spot. When they failed, the Lich King showed himself.
I think the scene between Darion and Daddy was a flashback the Lich King used to play games with Darion, but that's just my guess and this part felt really out of place and corny to me, so who knows? Personally I like to pretend this part doesn't happen, because man is it awkward.
The Ashbringer itself was rejecting Darion throughout the fight, so whatever is under Light's Hope Chapel started to turn the sword back to its Light side. It wouldn't obey the darkness anymore. Darion throwing it to Tirion Fordring, one of the current most devout/powerful Paladins in the world, that was the final turning point for the blade. The Ashbringer became Light again and let Tirion fight back.
The way the Death Knights of Acherus were freed is a lot like how the Forsaken were freed. A group of Scourge were given some amount of free will again during a point in which the Lich King had been weakened, and once they were aware of what was happening they weren't so easily swayed back into the ranks, especially with a strong-willed person to rely on such as Sylvanas or Darion Mograine. A lot of the Death Knights probably still hear the call of the Lich King, but know their loyalties now and can resist... if they want. They're mor or less just like the Forsaken. The big difference is the Lich King liked them better so most of them haven't had their faces rot off yet.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King, Ask a Lore Nerd






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
vazhkatsi Nov 30th 2008 4:23PM
this is not really a question, but i loved how they are able to still keep BC lore semi-relevant, it seemed that BC was firmly rooted in outlands, but at the end of a long questline to save a dying paladin, we see a certain very powerful person come with his allies to assist tirion in saving a paladin.
jaenicoll Nov 30th 2008 5:47PM
Yah its nice how things are moving along. In fact the whole development of the Scourge weapon from their attacks on the Druids in Ashenvale right up Wrathgate is awesome from an Alliance perspective (and I imagine even more so from a Scorge perspective).
In fact, the whole scourge betrayal of the Horde is something I am hoping to see develop (I've still got more questing to do so who knows). However, I fear rather than move the story along and rip up the exisitng factions and create all new alliances, Blizzard will prefer to compromise storyline in favour of not up-setting the players and guild structures.
Maybe not tho. Perhaps Blizz have some cunning applications ahead and we will see opportunities for cross factions raiding. Maybe the Phasing technology could give us something like a Caverns of Alternate Reality in which different factions exist. Imagine, BEs, NEs and Trolls accepting their common ancestry and banding together or Orc and Draenie putting aside their differences and accepting the genocide in Outland was manipulated by Sargerus.
I'm sure their are issues with world economies, trading etc that will make this impossible but heck it would be so cool to group up with certain races, classes of the opposite faction for certain controlled events.
Jae
Ktok Dec 1st 2008 12:13AM
@jaenicoll:
1) You mean Forsaken. Not Scourge. They are not the same thing.
2) The Forsaken did not betray the Horde. A radical faction *did*, but the vast, vast majority are still loyal, including Sylvanas herself.
3) That king you've got up in Stormwind... is a straight up douche bag :P
jaenicoll Dec 1st 2008 10:17AM
Thanks Ktok, I did mean the Forsaken and not the scourge in the first paragraph. Both factions have their heroes, anti-heroes and douche bags.
So far Varian has acted a little hot headed and looks a complete doofus but I am hoping that Blizzard will make both Garrosh and Varian have more complicated purposes than simply being antagonists to Jaina and Thrall's truce.
Anyhoo, my point behind the post was to stir up some interest in using the phasing technology to push the possibilities of how horde and alliance characters might be able to group up for instances and raids.
I seriously doubt it will ever affect the status quo of the exisiting factions BUT new temporary truces might be possible with certain caveats and in certain situations (like a CoT instance). Sure, trading would probably need to be disabled (to avoid world economies being altered) and inter faction communication may represent a challenge to implement ingame but those issues can be overcome.
Unlikely to ever happen but the phasing technology could be implemented to create all sorts of interesting game altering situations.
Jae
Jay in Oregon Dec 1st 2008 12:16PM
I really liked that whole quest chain. Without giving anything away, it's one of those "move heaven and earth to save a life"-type stories, and sends the player to an oft-mentioned place that has never been explored yet in WoW that I know of. (More of that, please!)
And the appearance that you refer to is so cool-looking, I actually remembered to mash the screenshot button for once.
Harp Nov 30th 2008 4:27PM
My Death Knight should hist 75 tonight and I just want to say that, if Arthas gave me the chance to rejoin him, I'd take it.
Questing in the starting area, laying waste to the living, was just too damned cool.
I've done maybe a half-dozen quests so far where the Lich King comes into play and each time I see him I /bow and /sorry in the hope that I'll find some bug in the code and be free to lay waste to the armies of man again.
Ah, the memories.
Kyle Nov 30th 2008 4:45PM
Sort of lame thumbnail picture. Great horde writeup though, a civil war could very well be brewing.
Eversor Nov 30th 2008 5:04PM
So THAT is how Ashbringer was really cleansed. Great to finally understand the process. A very good article.
Thiosion Nov 30th 2008 5:28PM
Question that's been bothering me for awhile:
Is Deathwing affiliated with the Old Gods? He was corrupted by them and is certainly an enemy of the other dragonflights, and by extension the Titans, but in Blackrock Mountain his son fights against Ragnaros, a powerful servant of said gods.
Riftsrunner Dec 1st 2008 12:49PM
Neltharion the Earth-Warder was driven mad by the Old Gods that were imprisoned within Azeroth. That is why he betrayed the other Dragonflights and change his name to Deathwing. He wasn't affiliated with them or he would have free them. It was the Dark Iron Dwarves that freed Ragnaros from his confinement in hopes of getting the upper hand on the other two families of Dwarf. They grossly underestimated his power and it turned two regions into burned out wastelands and Blackrock into a volcano. Now I am not sure but I believe that Blackrock mountain was a haven for the Black Dragonflight, so Ragnaros changes had ruined much of their former roost. Hence, the battle between the two powers over Blackrock.
Taytayflan Nov 30th 2008 5:11PM
Thrall didn't outright "lose" the fight. He got distracted from the Herald's yell, and was concerned about the city. Garrosh sucker-punched him in the middle of the fight. Thrall said he'd finish it later. Apparently, they haven't finished that fight yet.
Sean Riley Nov 30th 2008 5:29PM
He got saved by the bell. Garrosh would probably have won.
That said, you only kick a hero down to give him something to fight back against. Yes, there WILL be a rematch. I'll guarantee it.
Zakurax Nov 30th 2008 5:41PM
Well, I would not say that a shaman with full mana was saved by the bell.
Eisengel Nov 30th 2008 9:01PM
I don't think it was really that serious a fight. Kind of like if a grade-school kid gets really mad at you and start flailing at you... sure you'll defend yourself and maybe slap him upside the head... but you're not going to actually fight. Then he sucker punches you when you're temporarily distracted.
Garrosh is right in the middle of his lifecycle as a warrior. Most soldiers/warriors have pretty definite stages. You have the new recruits who know they have no idea what is going on and either try to act tough, jump at their own shadows, or kind of accept things as they come. Then after they graduate their intro training and are no longer newbs they get a bit of confidence. As they get promoted or have some successful superficial actions they'll get like Garrosh and feel like they're hell on wheels... then after they've actually seen real warfare and have been in the blood and guts on the field, they start to become the grizzled veteran, like Thrall.
Often people who love war and fighting haven't really been in it. Veterans are a lot more focussed on getting the job done without getting themselves or anyone in their command killed.
I have no doubt Thrall could've shut down Garrosh if he actually considered him a threat. I'm not saying Garrosh is weak, but Thrall has probably forgotten more about warfare than Garrosh has learned.
Avonar Nov 30th 2008 5:16PM
Great stuff, as always! Fascinating about the Ashbringer!
I was digging into the Kirin Tor today, when I wanted to know what was actually in the horde area in Dalaran. From what I read, the horde area, Sunreaver's Sanctuary, is named after Aethas Sunreaver, a member of the Six, ruling council of the Kirin Tor. I ended up reading up on the Silver Covenant, who "reject the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor." As the Silver Covenant is actually part of hte Kirin Tor and Aethas Sunreaver is a blood elf, a piece obviously doesn't fit.
Do you have any idea why the Silver Covenant doesn't want the blood elves in the Kirin Tor?
Shanic Nov 30th 2008 5:28PM
High Elves and Blood Elves do not get along is the first and most obvious reason. They view them as traitors who followed Kael'thas.
However, another probable reason is that the Horde are responsible for the deaths of High Elves and Kirin Tor members throughout Eastern Kingdoms. Admitting the Blood Elves means admitting the Horde.
And one final possibility: they rejected the idea of Blood Elves due to the fact the last Kirin Tor member of Blood Elves was Kael'thas. Considering him, for a second, they probably rejected Aethas Sunreaver as well. He was likely allowed in when he simply reminded Rhonin how much help he would need in the Nexus War and battles against the Lich King.
Though, all of this, is purely speculation. The stories of both factions have not been placed in the game.
fgsfds Nov 30th 2008 5:44PM
because they're blood elves
and you know how much those nuts love their magic
Shanic Nov 30th 2008 5:22PM
It's worth noting it's directly stated what is beneath Light's Hope Chapel - the souls of a thousand dead. Their anguish is what creates the Light of Dawn.
Just pretend all the dead from the Third War's destruction of Stratholme and Lorderon got buried in one spot. Even those that were former Scourge.
The exact quote:
"What you are feeling right now is the anguish of a thousand lost souls! Souls that you and your master brought here!"
As for the Alexandros/Darion thing, it was a flashback created to remind Darion of the past.
Chronus Nov 30th 2008 5:29PM
Question: Are the player Death Knights still living, or considered to be undead? In the intro they were said to be raised again and again to serve the Lich King, but when you die during the starting quest chains, the Valkyrie spirit that comes to raise you makes it seem more like a resurrection ("it is not yet your time"). So which one is it?
kabuki Nov 30th 2008 5:58PM
Player Death Knights are undead.
It's hard to explain, but I'll try to keep it simple. (don't wish to confuse anyone.)
Basically, the Player Death Knights, and DK's in general, are a kind of Lich. Meaning that they're immortal. Unlike most Liches, however, Death Knights don't have individual philacerys, (places to keep their souls.) Rather their souls were taken by Frostmourne. To kill a Lich, you must simply destroy its philacery, and since it's highly unlikely Frostmourne will ever be destroyed, Death Knights can't die.
If you think about it, Arthas was pretty slick (yeah I know blizz did it) in coming up with this idea.