Last Week on Massively: WoW-related stories
by Michael Zenke 
Dec 2nd 2008 at 11:30AM
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Bartle calls Blizzard out on torture quest in Wrath of the Lich King Richard Bartle, co-creator of the first multi-user dungeon MUD, has expressed his displeasure with Blizzard over a Wrath of the Lich King quest -- titled, "The Art of Persuasion" -- that involves the torture of a character for information. |
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Richard Bartle responds to "torture quest" issue A few days ago we ran a report on Richard Bartle's take on a torture quest in World of Warcraft, the Art of Persuasion. Since then, the discussion has exploded and some have taken Bartle's quotes out of context. Because of this, Bartle has created a follow-up post to clarify some of the points that may have been misinterpreted. |
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World of Warcraft Molten Core raid for ATARI becomes reality Earlier this year, Blizzard won the prank wars with Molten Core, a faux ATARI game based on World of Warcraft's Molten Core raid complete with eight directions of movement, glorious 2D graphics and, yes, sound. We bet you thought that was just a joke, and that everyone would have forgotten about it after a week had gone by, but guess what? It's back, and this time it's real! |
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The Digital Continuum: Moria or Wrath? Standing in the tiny store, I found myself at a crossroads. I'd put a lot of thought into this, but now that the decision was starting back at me, it seemed much more daunting. The question kept repeating in my head, "Do I buy Wrath, or Moria?" |
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Comparing the expansion launches for WoW, EQ2, and LotRO GamerDNA is doing its level best to answer these sort of weighty questions by datamining the heck out of their userbase. We have some hard-and-fast metrics, as a result, exploring these exact issues. |
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Felicia Day talks WoW addiction, characters, oldschool PC gaming G4TV's X-Play interviewed the lovely Felicia Day on video about her soon-to-return web video series The Guild and her past gaming experience. Fans of Ms. Day and her show will eat it up no matter what we say, of course, but we will note that she reveals what her main World of Warcraft character was and what games she played when she was a kid. |
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Raiding: Learning by fear and humiliation You may have never thought of it, but each and every day of the week, America's teachers walk into a 25 man raid and attempt to take them to new heights. Raids and learning actually do have more in common than one would initially believe. |
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Behind the Curtain: Too much emotion So, the rantings of an out-of-touch academic, desperate to grab attention, or astute observations from a true pioneer of MMOs and virtual worlds? I'll go with the latter – partly because it's true, and partly because I'm scared Dr Bartle might hunt me down and shout at me. |
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Know Your LotRO Lore: Khazad-dum and the origins of Moria Long ago, the Dwarves were numerous and mighty. This was an age when the Elves, Men and Dwarves lived in harmony, the mithril was plentiful and the Orcs were driven back to Sauron's lair. This was the end of the Second Age: the age of Khazad-dûm. To first understand Khazad-dûm, we must start at the very beginning. |
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Anti-Aliased: You've been Auto-Assaulted So, NCsoft, how does it feel to absolutely lie through your teeth to players and staff about Tabula Rasa? |
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, News items, Features
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
theholyevil Dec 2nd 2008 11:51AM
ok....... i don't see the problem in toturing something pixilated.... that's my oppinion
if they tell me to throw eggs at thralls house, you better beleive i'm going to do it! why? because this game is not reality! if they told me to toture something in real life, that would be a different story. but people have to take in moderation that this game in not real. hell if it was i wouldn't even touch a horde the wrong way. and don't get me started on all the wabbits i've...... terminated :(
Kevin Dec 2nd 2008 12:00PM
Blah... more whining about torture. It would be nice if Bliz would allow you to complete the quest by either torturing OR refusing to torture. It would also be nice if Bliz would allow you to complete many of the Forsaken quests throughout WoW by refusing to be a part of the development of biological weapons and the testing of the weapons on prisoners... or not. It's part of the plot line. Actually, that quest made me LOL a bit. "I'll just busy myself organizing these shelves here. Oh, and here, perhaps you'll find this old thing useful.... "
FenSat Dec 2nd 2008 12:14PM
The quest did send up a red flag...then I did it. Why? Because the trailer actually hints at what's going on: you are on the same path that Arthas was on, facing some similar - albeit more minor in the grand scheme of things - choices he had to make.
It's almost expected that the character will follow through with the torture despite any misgivings he or she might have, so that by the time you are in Icecrown questing, you might find yourself wondering if the Alliance/Horde aren't in danger of becoming that which they seek to destroy. The Alliance and the Horde have allied with the Knights of the Ebon Hand, who function in all respects like a dark version of the Argent Crusade, right down to the methods they are willing to employ. Also, the torture quest won't be the last "morally dubious" quest you are expected to complete to advance the quest chain/story line. Provided you do think about the story line somewhat, you will see better how Arthas could slip to the point he did, and I think that's to point: to make the more thoughtful of us see how the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Kudos to Blizzard for attempting to do that!
Adamanthis Dec 2nd 2008 12:19PM
Perhaps they should first introduce a gameplay option that allows our characters NOT to be mass murderers by level 10...
Kunikiko Dec 2nd 2008 1:17PM
His claim that this is a new kind of shocking material makes me question whether or not he's even played the game up until now?
The torture of one prisoner is far less disturbing than some of the other content from the original RTS games and WoW/BC.
Bartle's comments come off as ignorant rather than poignant.
Flame Dec 2nd 2008 1:44PM
I know exactly where this is coming from. When I got that quest I turned to my girlfriend (who was doing the quest along with me) and asked her if I was seriously supposed to torture someone with no alternatives. I know I've probably killed more Defias than there are players on my servers, but I'd say about 95% of my attacks in the game have been justifiable in self-defense or some other form of equitable justification. Here I have a prisoner (the same prisoner I forced to run behind my Talbuk whilst in chains) who is completely defenseless and I am forced to torture for information (all while in the name of greater good).
Don't get me wrong, I still did the quest (on a side note, one way to get out of it is to group with someone else for it that doesn't mind doing the deed. you'll still get credit for it even if you don't touch them) because it's a game, but it definitely made me think.
Couple that quest with the other one in Borean Tundra where you don a murloc suit with a white flag to get through enemy lines to kill their leader and you have the beginnings of some definite questionable content.
(I ended up justifying all of these quests and actions I was asked to undertake as a sign of just how desperate the Alliance/Horde are at stopping Arthas)
Gaston Dec 2nd 2008 2:02PM
"However, previous quests have not exactly asked you to commit murder (at least for the Alliance — I don't know about Horde). It's always been for some morally justifiable purpose (self defence, most of the time). Whether you believe that torture can ever be morally justified or not (personally, I don't), you can't justify it in this particular case."
Good thing Bartle didn't roll an undead, he would have crapped his pants by level 8.
His statement above shows a total lack of understanding of the issue he is speaking of. He claims to be okay with the concept of killing people in the game cause most are self defense. However, most of them are not. You are either killing somebody for being the leader of a group of baddies, revenge, or possible future actions. Not really self defense in the true sense. Perhaps self preservation is a more applicable term. So why Bartle is so up in arms over this one, not quite sure. This quest has the same ends, just different means.
Ilnara Dec 2nd 2008 2:41PM
Richard Bartle needs to get the stick out of his ass.
Roke Dec 2nd 2008 3:47PM
Anyone who is okay with the killing of Defias Brotherhood members but not torture should've read the quests better in the run-up to Deadmines. It started off as a group of people who rebuilt Stormwind, and then when they asked for payment were exiled. And now you're killing them by the hundreds. Of course it's framed in a self-defense, or simply a return for past injustices. Even Hitler framed his ideas in that context. But simply because it can be twisted that way doesn't make it so.
Moral amibuity is part of Northrend. Arthas faced the same problems when he orginially landed. He lost his soul, so it doesn't always lead to positive consequences like this does. And not everyone thinks torture is always bad, remember, even in the real world. If it bugs you that much, think of it as a reflection of the real world. Hell, if it bugs you that much, don't do it. Or better yet, try a different game.
Of course it doesn't come up in the quest text that your character may have a problem with it, because the quest giver doesn't have a problem with it. In life, people don't ask you to do something for them, then tell you your feelings on the matter. Nor do we include our feelings on various things we write on to-do lists (which is essentially what quest summaries are). It's an MMORPG. Pay special attention to the last three letters. It is your duty to roleplay your character's response, not Blizzard's to do so for you.
Kylenne Dec 2nd 2008 3:57PM
People keep bringing up the Defias, and then conveniently leaving out that they incited a mob riot that killed Varian's wife, aka the Queen of Stormwind. LOL.
Kylenne Dec 2nd 2008 3:48PM
And again, the point keeps sailing over people's heads. Bartle was not complaining about being asked to torture someone for a quest necessarily, it was the completely lame and unambiguous way it was implemented. I did the quest despite deep discomfort just because I wanted to see how they would handle the end result. I was profoundly disappointed that it just got a simple "yay quest complete" xp, rep, and I was sent on my merry way. For an xpac that seems to be all about having players walk in Arthas' shoes, there sure wasn't a whole lot of thought provoking morality stuff presented there--it was treated as if it were no different than the 8 billion poo quests, or the Pokemon-style gotta catch em all quests. I won't be doing that quest again on my alts, that's for damn sure. But I'm the sort of hippie that refuses to do any Nesingwary quests (skipped them in STV, Nagrand, and now SB). I don't RP on my home server, but there's no way I can see my Draenei doing things like that. If I were Forsaken, maybe.
One last thing (and maybe this is because I came to MMOs from years of MUDs), whether you agree with Bartle or not, understand that this guy's work is a large part of the reason we get to sit and argue over quests in WoW in the first place. At least give him that much respect.
Roke Dec 2nd 2008 3:55PM
I never doubted Bartle's credentials. I just assumed he'd be important if he even made news with it. To be honest I didn't know anything of him before this.
Anyway, I refer you to the last nine lines of my post in direct response to Bartle. I know you didn't see it before you posted, but I answer what he was saying there. The other parts of my post, admittedly, were in response to players' problems with the quest.
Kaiva Dec 3rd 2008 11:34PM
When you're watching a tv show that involves torture, say "24" or "Lost", and the torture scene starts, do you get up off your couch in outrage and say "Why are they making me watch torture with no alternative?!". No. Of course not. This is linear storytelling, and if you could avoid that particular event in the story, the rest of the story beyond that point wouldn't happen.
Similarly, In warcraft you can tortue the npc and progress with that storyline, or, if you are so opposed to the thought of torture you can abandon the quest and not progress through that storyline.
I remember being a young night elf in teldrassil, and gathering animal components for the satyr in dolonar. After completing that quest a different npc says she is ashamed in you and offers you a new quest to redeem yourself for helping an enemy of the night elves. Who's to say this torure quest in northrend won't have similar repercussions?
Bromnir Dec 2nd 2008 6:08PM
Can we stop fighting about Bartle and torture for five minutes and focus on what's really important here?
SOMEONE ACTUALLY MADE THAT MOLTEN CORE ATARI GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Cobaltcorvid Dec 4th 2008 6:42PM
I've yet to see someone complaining about the torture quest who had a reasonable explanation (and 'self defense' is not, imho, a reasonable explanation for 90% of them) for not minding the other torture quests, the quests to kill creatures/people, the quests to burn down houses/camps/etc.... or heck, even just basic farming for something you want.
Also, seriously? If it bothers you? Don't do it. I was somewhat bothered by a quest I was given, so I dropped it and moved on. Not a difficult thing to do.
Also that Atari game is amazing. :D
Khirzask Dec 4th 2008 2:42AM
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