Counterpoint: Yes, we should track raiding progression
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 4th 2008 at 4:30PM
There's been a lot of hemming and hawing lately about how Wrath is too easy. And there's no question that it is: Ensidia cut through the endgame like an epic dagger through the Vykrul, and any guild that steps into the endgame these days, even with low numbers or cheap gear, finds success. Adam suggested this morning that raiding is so easy these days that we shouldn't bother to track progression, and while Adam is a great writer and a terrific player, I'm here to disagree with his opinion: progression is exactly what the new endgame is all about.While Karazhan was one of the (if not the) most successful instances ever, it had one big problem: it killed guilds. It murdered progression. It was a roadblock after a roadblock, so much so that it took some guilds months to conquer, if they survived at all. Ten man Naxx obviously doesn't have that problem -- anyone with a little raiding experience who wants to beat bosses in there can do so, and Obsidian Sanctum is just as easy. The problem now, however, is that guilds like Ensidia and guilds who pushed through to Sunwell in the old endgame, are finishing the content already, and wondering what's next? They were 80 two weeks ago, and now, barely a month after the expansion's release, they've toppled every dungeon they can find.
And what's wrong with that? Nothing.
Because those people aren't who this expansion is for. The vast majority of players, as Adam himself posted today, isn't even level 80 yet. I've only barely hit 77, and that's after taking a week off while having to travel during Thanksgiving. High-end guilds and players who rushed to 80 may be whining that they have finished all the content, but the vast majority of us are barely halfway through it. You just can't run Wrath at Sunwell speeds, and frankly, that's a good thing.
Because there's so much more to do -- I wonder if all of the players angry that they've beaten Malygos have gotten all the Exalted rep they need, have picked up all of the Wintergrasp gear that they want to pick up, or have leveled a Death Knight up to 80 as well. I wonder if they've toppled all the Heroics (even Adam says the Heroics can be hard at times), or finished off all of the 25 man raids also. I wonder if they've earned every achievement point yet. I wonder if they've finished all of the amazing questlines to be found in Northrend -- from the time you step off of the boat to the first glimpses of Icecrown Citadel, there are tons of great things to see and do.
And if they have beaten all of that and conquered everything, then I suggest they go outside, or find another game -- I hear Final Fantasy XI has some challenging encounters they might enjoy. Yes, hardcore players will blow through PvE content in Wrath, but finally, as we've been saying since the game first started, this endgame isn't for hardcore players any more. People who want more can find it -- we haven't seen a player yet who's finished all of the achievements, and we're more than happy to post about anyone who goes an extra mile and solos content or does it better than everyone else. But the normal endgame -- the game designers worked so hard on -- is for us regular players now. The biggest group of players in the game is now able to play and enjoy the best content. Maybe Ensidia can go get world firsts somewhere else, at least until the next content patch.
And of course we should track raiding progression -- as we say in Guildwatch, it doesn't matter whether you're killing Van Cleef or Kael'thas or Sartharion: a down is a down, worth every wipe. Downing bosses in an MMO should be about teaming up and killing content together, not who can race to have the prettiest pixels. If your guild can beat the endgame, grats -- why shouldn't other guilds be able to do the same thing? And why shouldn't they get congratulated when they do?
"But that makes it meaningless," you say. "Everyone can win." And now you're getting it: it's an MMO. Everyone's the hero. Whether you take your sweet time questing around the new zones or push straight to the endgame to topple the big bad bosses, you too can see all of the dungeons and all of the encounters in the expansion. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Expansions, Raiding, Bosses, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 10)
Mike Dec 4th 2008 4:34PM
Are you getting paid to hype "EnsidiaTM" as well? Please stop mentioning those sell-outs.
Engore Dec 4th 2008 6:06PM
Dont be emo imo.
Arel Dec 4th 2008 8:46PM
Wow. There's so much wrong with this article.
Ok, I haven't gotten all my reps to exalted, or finished every achievement. But you know what? I don't really want to. Not because I'm not interested in that stuff. But because I know it will be mind-numbingly easy. Just as easy as taking down dungeons and leveling has been. There's really nothing to look forward to in terms of challenge. And that's when you start looking for another game.
I know I know. You're thinking, who cares about you. There's a bunch of 'casual' players who are experiencing endgame content for the first time. Well, I hate to break it to you, but yeah Kara was a guild-breaker, and you know what? There are 11 million subscribers to WOW. Obviously. A hard Kara didn't scare players away did it?? If things are hard, it means you have to play this game a lot. It means the best players, have to play this game, a lot. It means we can keep at this for awhile. Once things get too easy, the best players will leave. And who wants to play a game that the best players aren't playing?? Seriously. If the best players move on to another MMO, I guarantee you the general public will follow them. Because it's the best players that drive the culture... articles, magazines, guilds, FAQs. Once you lose the hardcore audience, who's going to take care of all those things? The people who barely have enough time to play? I don't think so.
I actually would understand this need to undertune everything if WOW wasn't growing. But it has been. This is totally unnecessary.
sickbox Dec 4th 2008 9:49PM
@Arel
I don't think you understand the point he's trying to get across. This expansion was made for the 11 Million people that play the game, not the 5000 or so that had sunwell on farm before the nerf. Blizzard has said that they could make content harder if they wanted to but they would like to make the content available to everyone not just hardcore raiders. I'm sure that after everyone gets through the bulk of wrath content new more challenging dungeons and raids will be introduced to accommodate the hardcore guys again.
You shouldn't need to blow through the game within the first week of buying it and smash every boss and mob in the game to have fun. Play at your own pace experience all that the game has to offer and then worry about getting in to 25 man naxx is the whole idea blizz went with. I know I'm having fun playing still going through every quest available and hope they keep up the good work.
Warlock Zara Dec 5th 2008 3:45AM
@DrowNoble:
Exactly because I've been in EQ-1 raiding I have the reflex to think "oh good!" every time I hear "the entry level raids in WotLK are too easy".
If your idea of fun is pulling new recruits through three year old raids, just so they won't die to the AOE in two year old raids, which they need to be pulled through, just so you can pull them through one year old raids to gear them up for the actual endgame. Than by all means go back to "real raiding".
The problem is that Blizzard listened to all the hardcore whiners that were crying they replaced their Naxx(old Naxx) gear so soon in TBC.
So fast forward a year and a half, Sunwell gear is on par with heroic drops. Sunwell geared raider are well above the gear requirement for Naxx and instance they allready know the tactics of... and now the crying starts that they can clear it too fast.... make up your mind.
To be honest Blizzard should have made a slightly bigger gear (yet smaller than TBC) reset and add a little bit more actually NEW raid content. (two bosses (three of you count Archaloot) feels a little on the cheap side).
You can't have it all though, you can't expect them to get it perfect either, also it's not as easy as some people make it out to be. If you're all in full T5, than you can't jump into Naxx 10 and clear it without a few proper upgrades. It's only people in full T6 (with a little sunwell) that are allready geared for the instance
knm1288 Dec 5th 2008 9:36AM
@ Arel
Unfortunately, I think your definition of a "good" player might be incorrect. You seem to think that having an infinite amount of time to devout to this game means you are a good player. In BC I saw many people get into T6 content not because they were at all better than me (some were actually pretty bad) but because they had the time to raid 5 nights a week and I did not.
When the game becomes more about time invested than skill I think there might be something wrong. Blizzard is trying to fix this problem and make it so that if you only have a couple nights a week to devout to raiding you aren't completely left in the dark.
Also, just try to keep your pants on for a bit. I believe blizzard has stated that they're just trying to make the introduction raids easier so raiding isn't as hard to get into. So it is very possible that the next content they patch in will be more challenging, at least in the 25 man version. I believe the ten mans they still want to keep for the casuals so those might not get too much harder.
Runstadrey Dec 5th 2008 11:10AM
Arel, you don't like it? Then GTF out of my game!!!
Charlie Dec 5th 2008 1:09PM
@ Warlock Zara
"If you're all in full T5, than you can't jump into Naxx 10 and clear it without a few proper upgrades. It's only people in full T6 (with a little sunwell) that are allready geared for the instance"
Thats not really true. For 25 man yes, for 10 man no. 10 man you can go in with all northrend blues and clear it if you know what your doing. My guild cleared it the first night in there.
Even for experienced raiders, you shouldn't be able to clear an entire raid instance with 16 some bosses on your first night. Thats insane.
And we never entered sunwell, we nevered downed Illy (though will cleared Hyjal). We were in mostly northrend blues with a few peices of t6 left. New enchants and gems of course, but other than that nothing.
25 man gives somewhat of a challenge still. We went in and wiped on gluth a bunch of times and called it cause it was late. We wiped on Grob a few times but once the new people got the "dont stand in the middle of the freaking raid when you get the injection" idea he was an eazy kill.
I think the actual difficulty of naxx is pretty off by everyone. The people who say its too eazy way over state it, and the people who think its at a good level really understate it.
I look at it this way. Naxx 10 man is a normal dungeon. lvl 80 normal dungeons are not that hard. They are puggable. Get a group of friends together and you can clear it no prob. Maybe you wipe a few times if you don't know they encounters, but if you know what your doing a clear is a breeze.
Naxx 25 man is like a heroic dungeon (like omgosh it even says Heroic on it!), Some encounters you will breeze through, but some will kick you in the ass. Like Loken will kick you in the ass alot, so will Gluth, Kel'thuzud, and Sapphiron. But there are some eazy ones as well.
The raids will get more difficult. Ulduar will definatley be a step up in difficulty and it will come at at time when most capable guilds have cleared 25 man naxx and are working on finishing up the last two.
Unlike BC where they released BT and Hyjal waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before most guilds could realistically be in them, i think they are planning on releasing Ulduar when most guilds can reach them. Makes sense IMO.
Zaniac Dec 5th 2008 4:28PM
"yeah Kara was a guild-breaker, and you know what? There are 11 million subscribers to WOW. Obviously. A hard Kara didn't scare players away did it??"
No, but they also didn't get 11 million subscribers because Kara was hard, so I don't understand what your point was.
In fact, they got 11 million subscribers because WoW is easy.
Easy to pick up, and hard to master. Not hardcore hard, mind you. Just hard.
I can understand the desire to be part of an elite in a game, and the frustration that wow, being an mmorpg - those have always had content specifically for the elite, has now shifted towards a more accessible format. And I agree that there should be a small area, that is only reachable if you are the elite. But it should be very small, and not 100% exclusive. Heroics is a way to go. That way, no one misses the content, they'll just have to engage it at their skill level.
What I cannot understand, however, is your snobby elitist attitude, if I understood your post correctly:
"who wants to play a game that the best players aren't playing??"
Answer: Anyone who wanted to play it.
- The fact that some hypothetical elite doesn't play it, means nothing at all. The second best will simply be considered the new elite.
"If the best players move on to another MMO, I guarantee you the general public will follow them."
I'm not so sure.
"Because it's the best players that drive the culture"
I definately disagree.
By the way, here's a hint:
Pick up a second game. No one ever said you had to focus all your attention on only one game. If you have that much time, don't spend it on one game, or even solely on games. Read some books, learn a language or something. Live.
Games remain a recreational activity.
Not the life that some people have turned it into.
- Just ask the creators of the game.
Kelly Dec 5th 2008 7:52PM
"And who wants to play a game that the best players aren't playing??"
Um, people with lives. Most people (90%) play this game because they like it, not because "the best players are playing it." What the hell kind of reality do you live in?
Arel Dec 6th 2008 3:24PM
Two points of fact, since this whole thing seems to be full of opinions. ;)
1. BC endgame was hard. It didn't stop WOW from attracting 11 million subscribers.
2. Blizzard is messing with something that was already working.
(third point, my opinion, but i think substantiated)
3. Making things easier has ruffled the feathers of those who put the most time into this game. The ones who make wikis, mods, articles, FAQs, guides, videos. And that just might not be the best thing to do for the long-term health of the WOW community. Just saying, you opining posters ;p
Tatko Dec 8th 2008 12:21AM
@Arel: Well, I write addons. Some call me a hardcore player, since I play at least a few hours every day. I just got my first level 80 today. And I'm sorry, but I'm very happy with the changes it WotLK.
Also today, I went with a pug to kill the Wintergrasp 10-man boss (I forgot the name, but I'm quite sure you know which one). I think that the raid leader was one of the "good players" you talk about, since he acted like a real asshat, made fun of people's gear, and kept talking about how great his DPS is.
And while his DPS was indeed way above everyone else's, if he quits the game because it's too easy, I somehow doubt that it will cause any of the nine other folks in that pug to cancel their subscriptions.
Geoff Dec 4th 2008 4:35PM
Well said. The expansion changes actually makes me enjoy the game more, as I feel no pressure to level, to get the gear I need as fast as possible, and to actually take time off of the game and do other things as well. Wow is always there for me to log on and play whenever I want to be entertained, but the driving -need- behind it is gone, replaced by casual enjoyment that everyone can experience.
mcclary Dec 4th 2008 4:45PM
Agree with you here Geoff. I have played less since the expansion released and I am really enjoying it. It's not going anywhere, so no need to rush.
71 Main, 70 alt, 66 DK
Mcclary
Devin Dec 4th 2008 4:54PM
I think this is why I have not felt the "need" to log on lately like I did in TBC. I'm one bar away from 77, and was formerly in a Kael raiding guild previously.
I know it's there when I want to play, it's not the hardcore rush it was formerly.
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 4:54PM
"If your guild can beat the endgame, grats -- why shouldn't other guilds be able to do the same thing? And why shouldn't they get congratulated when they do?
"But that makes it meaningless," you say. "Everyone can win." And now you're getting it: it's an MMO. Everyone's the hero. Whether you take your sweet time questing around the new zones or push straight to the endgame to topple the big bad bosses, you too can see all of the dungeons and all of the encounters in the expansion. Nothing wrong with that at all."
A-fucking-men.
"Someone call the waaahmbulance. A casual guild has the same pixels I do in a video game, and thus my e-peen won't appear as big right away!"
ivan256 Dec 4th 2008 5:05PM
Why, Cyanea, is it so hard for you to comprehend that people enjoy challenging content, and that it isn't all about being better than somebody else?
Two weeks in, and all the 25-mans are on farm. How long will I want to play that game before I get bored? Hopefully the first content patch comes out before that, but I can see me getting bored with the current raids in 4-5 resets. The quantity of loot that drops is massive. Rep gains are trivial to obtain. Honestly, I could care less if casual players can or can't see the same content. All I care about is that it was easy, I've seen it, and once there aren't any more upgrades I'm going to be bored.
There are 10-man version of every raid instance. Those would have been fine for casual players.... They could have made it so that the 25-mans were signifigantly harder (hard enough to require the 10-man loot to have a chance at), and everybody would still have been able to have the type of game they enjoyed. Instead, the 25-mans are significantly easier than the 10-mans, and guilds like the one I'm in who had nobody in beta, and nobody who raided Naxx pre-BC, have already cleared everything...
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 5:49PM
Because I'm frankly...tired of hearing this. I'm tired of this "controversy" on every one of the previously enlightening and entertaining blogs I usually read. Wrath has not even been out for a full month. QQing raiders can't get their heads around the concept that the "endgame" they're so desperate to have is not over. It hasn't even BEGUN yet.
Sunwell was not shipped with TBC. The Black Temple wasn't even open on BC's release date. The people who are complaining seem to be dead set on the idea that this is it. There's gonna be no endgame beyond what's already in the game.
Blizzard has been on record saying several times that they felt the introduction to raiding in Burning Crusade was too much of a brickwall. They stated a ton of times that they wanted Wrath to have a more gradual, easier transition to harder raiding content. Why is this bad? Why? Not only were BC raids a brickwall in terms of gear, they were brickwalls in terms of knowing how to play in a raid. They're a much different beast from 5-mans played with a PuG. You need to know HOW to raid in order to raid...but you need to raid to learn how. A more educated, skilled playerbase working their way to the inevitable harder endgame content will only serve to enrich raiding as a whole. More strategies, more tactics, more debate, more fun. How is this a bad thing?
It's pretty easy to bash on Blizzard for being sell-outs, idiots, etc...but WoW's the most popular MMO in the world, and has kept that title for nearly half a decade now. They obviously know what they're doing and I'm willing to give them the chance to do it. If not, I'll eat my Bloodsail Admiral's Hat.
Ilnara Dec 4th 2008 6:30PM
Ivan, the problem is, the challenge wasn't doing the content, it was keeping a guild together long enough to get a decent enough chance at completing the content.
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 7:08PM
Not to mention the fact that the initial "starter" raids in BC seemed to be tuned (in terms of experience and skill) for people who had been through the old Azeroth endgame, putting players (such as myself) who started the game after BC's release at a serious disadvantage because no one runs Onyxia, Ahn'Qiraj, etc anymore. I think Blizzard wanted to prevent the same thing from happening to new players who joined the game after Wrath's release, who would then be two endgames behind. I think players are going to have to get used to the idea of "restarting" the difficulty of endgames with every new expansion.