Counterpoint: Yes, we should track raiding progression
There's been a lot of hemming and hawing lately about how Wrath is too easy. And there's no question that it is: Ensidia cut through the endgame like an epic dagger through the Vykrul, and any guild that steps into the endgame these days, even with low numbers or cheap gear, finds success. Adam suggested this morning that raiding is so easy these days that we shouldn't bother to track progression, and while Adam is a great writer and a terrific player, I'm here to disagree with his opinion: progression is exactly what the new endgame is all about.While Karazhan was one of the (if not the) most successful instances ever, it had one big problem: it killed guilds. It murdered progression. It was a roadblock after a roadblock, so much so that it took some guilds months to conquer, if they survived at all. Ten man Naxx obviously doesn't have that problem -- anyone with a little raiding experience who wants to beat bosses in there can do so, and Obsidian Sanctum is just as easy. The problem now, however, is that guilds like Ensidia and guilds who pushed through to Sunwell in the old endgame, are finishing the content already, and wondering what's next? They were 80 two weeks ago, and now, barely a month after the expansion's release, they've toppled every dungeon they can find.
And what's wrong with that? Nothing.
Because those people aren't who this expansion is for. The vast majority of players, as Adam himself posted today, isn't even level 80 yet. I've only barely hit 77, and that's after taking a week off while having to travel during Thanksgiving. High-end guilds and players who rushed to 80 may be whining that they have finished all the content, but the vast majority of us are barely halfway through it. You just can't run Wrath at Sunwell speeds, and frankly, that's a good thing.
Because there's so much more to do -- I wonder if all of the players angry that they've beaten Malygos have gotten all the Exalted rep they need, have picked up all of the Wintergrasp gear that they want to pick up, or have leveled a Death Knight up to 80 as well. I wonder if they've toppled all the Heroics (even Adam says the Heroics can be hard at times), or finished off all of the 25 man raids also. I wonder if they've earned every achievement point yet. I wonder if they've finished all of the amazing questlines to be found in Northrend -- from the time you step off of the boat to the first glimpses of Icecrown Citadel, there are tons of great things to see and do.
And if they have beaten all of that and conquered everything, then I suggest they go outside, or find another game -- I hear Final Fantasy XI has some challenging encounters they might enjoy. Yes, hardcore players will blow through PvE content in Wrath, but finally, as we've been saying since the game first started, this endgame isn't for hardcore players any more. People who want more can find it -- we haven't seen a player yet who's finished all of the achievements, and we're more than happy to post about anyone who goes an extra mile and solos content or does it better than everyone else. But the normal endgame -- the game designers worked so hard on -- is for us regular players now. The biggest group of players in the game is now able to play and enjoy the best content. Maybe Ensidia can go get world firsts somewhere else, at least until the next content patch.
And of course we should track raiding progression -- as we say in Guildwatch, it doesn't matter whether you're killing Van Cleef or Kael'thas or Sartharion: a down is a down, worth every wipe. Downing bosses in an MMO should be about teaming up and killing content together, not who can race to have the prettiest pixels. If your guild can beat the endgame, grats -- why shouldn't other guilds be able to do the same thing? And why shouldn't they get congratulated when they do?
"But that makes it meaningless," you say. "Everyone can win." And now you're getting it: it's an MMO. Everyone's the hero. Whether you take your sweet time questing around the new zones or push straight to the endgame to topple the big bad bosses, you too can see all of the dungeons and all of the encounters in the expansion. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Expansions, Raiding, Bosses, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 10)
Evelinda Dec 4th 2008 7:33PM
I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Ivan... While i think its great that the 10 man raids are so accesible, i agree that they could have tuned the 25's to be much more of a challenge. The system is in place, it seems like they could have used it. I'm almost certainly never going to see the inside of a 25 man raid in wotlk, because i'm a pretty casual player... ZA/TK was as far as i got in BC, but frankly i'm quite happy to only run 10 mans... that way i get to see the content, and i dont need to put in a massive amount of effort doing it. The idea that the 25's would be involved enough, and difficult enough to require a higher level of skill (or at lease dedication) and gear seems like an excellent compromise to me, because that way you get the majority of the population able to enjoy all the content they can, and those who are more "hardcore" get to enjoy what they're looking for, and have missed so far, namely a challenge. Sure, you cant please all the people all the time, but it seems to me that that might have helped.
jtrain Dec 4th 2008 7:57PM
Boy, I've gone back and forth about this, but I think Evelinda has it right. There needs to be a balance between providing people challenging content, and making sure part of the game isn't inaccessible to players.
I think the concept of 10-man, 25-man content in the same dungeon is brilliant; now you don't need to be 'hardcore' to see all the cool instances. However, I really feel that the compromise here is to tune the 10-man stuff the way it is now, but make the 25-man stuff hard enough that the guilds who want a challenge get it. Casuals win because they see everything the hardcore do, and hardcores win because they have the challenge they desire. Does anyone really have an issue with this?
Driphter Dec 4th 2008 8:42PM
Cyanea:
Do you even know what your talking about? People starting after BC's release were at a disadvantage because they weren't in AQ and Naxx gear? People were replacing their T3 in a couple of levels. Hell, I started after BC, got to 70, got the best quest gear I could, got heroic gear, farmed Kara, got badge gear, jumped to a MH/BT guild, and ended BC with glaives. But you say I was at a disadvantage?
And yes, BT and Sunwell weren't in release. But at least there was a challenge in place. The problem is that people don't understand the fundamentals of raiding. It's not always about being somewhere first, see bosses fall over, or getting loot. It's about being with 24 other people you know and beating your collective head against something that necessitates it. And then once it down for the first time, the feeling is phenomenal. I have yet to have anywhere near that feeling one shotting new 25 man bosses that 80% of the raid don't even know the strat on.
As for the other two reasons that you say these raids are built like tissue paper: "It's the beginning of the endgame" and "It's content for everyone!" What happens when(if) the difficulty ramps up to a proper endgame? Everyone won't see it, and bad players will cry out that raiding suddenly got hard.
Oh, I forgot your bit about how people need easy content to learn to raid. I didn't when I started raiding, and I'm sure there are others who don't. I don't even think that these raids can serve to teach anyone anything. "Hit any ole' button that does damage, it doesn't really matter!" won't help much for an actual DPS race.
~Driphter
DrowNoble Dec 4th 2008 9:14PM
As I have told people in person before when they comment on WoW raiding, "if you never played EQ1 you have no concept of what real raiding is like".
WoW was briefly World of Raidcraft during the MC to Naxx40 days. Blizzard shifted focus away from that in TBC and further in Wrath. Their philosophy is to make the game accessable to as many people as possible, they've said that many times. This not only means to keep the graphics lower-end for wider range of playable PC's, but to also make the content available to all types of players.
Besides wouldn't matter if they made the level cap 100 or 150, you'd have somebody somewhere blitz to the cap in record time and then start complaining about how bored they are because the game is "too easy".
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 9:52PM
Obviously not everyone's having an obscenely easy time of it.
Just got the messages about five minutes ago about the Realm First Malygos 10-man defeat on Blackwater Raiders. So obviously not everyone in the game is finding it as easy as a handful of people are.
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 11:27PM
@Driphter
If you reread what I said, you'll see that I said "old Azeroth raiding EXPERIENCE". I did not raid in vanilla WoW as that was before I joined the game. Based on the description of a friend, who is a veteran raider, old Azeroth raids were more scaled at the beginning to the player who's just raiding for the first time as far as gear and difficulty, but the intro raids for BC seemed to assume you had been through Onyxia, AQ, MC, etc etc and thus knew how to work with 39/24 other people in order to raid.
"I didn't when I started raiding, and I'm sure there are others who don't."
I'm so happy for you. Can you say the same for the other 10,999,999 people who play the game?
jack Dec 4th 2008 4:37PM
hells to the yeah on that one.
Alex P Dec 4th 2008 7:27PM
Indeed, couldn't agree more. :)
romiress Dec 4th 2008 4:38PM
I have to agree on this. Everyone is all 'OMG GAEM 2 EZ!'. I only hit 70 the day LK hit - for me, this stuff is amazingly fun. I have a riddiculously fun time wiping in 10 and 25 Naxx, and it lets groups PUG it for fun. From what I can tell, some guilds did Kara for MONTHS, unable to take that next step. Meanwhile, we're already moving through instances, picking up the tricks and learning what to do. It's your own personal sense of accomplishment that makes you keep going.
Kelly Dec 5th 2008 8:08PM
It's true. Blizzard wants the game to be more about fun, and less about work. A vocal 1% of the gaming community thinks it should be more about work. Those people can get a grip. I like to have fun when I play video games. I save the challenges for real life.
Vlatch Dec 4th 2008 4:40PM
I agree in general with this post. Much less "troll-like" than Adam's post and I tend to be on board with this sentiment. My small guild has a chance simply because of the 10-man versions now coming standard with raids, but allowing everyone to start the progression, then making the challenges progressively more difficult is the way it should have been done all along.
If your only raiding experience was Kara, you have no idea of the complexity of some of the Sunwell - or even TK fights. How are you supposed to jump into the deep end in Wrath. I think the mechanics being learned in Naxx are what's important. The difficult will be stepped up in Ulduar.
superstone Dec 4th 2008 4:41PM
Lots of people must have hated that Adam Holisky post this morning.
mcclary Dec 4th 2008 4:48PM
Not only did they hate the post, but they hated Adam too!
WI Commenters are ruthless!
"YOU FORGOTS THE COMMA, ELITIST PIG!"
eillind Dec 4th 2008 4:44PM
HEY! i have an idea lets reward those who work less!
way to sell out to the fails, blizz GG
Makros Dec 4th 2008 4:52PM
Reward those who WORK less? This is a GAME it should never be considered WORK. There is still be plenty of room for all the epeen pixel snobs to prove they are better than everyone else at a video game, but it makes sense to let a larger majority of the player base enjoy the full game.
oldwisemonk Dec 4th 2008 4:53PM
Work is for workers. Games are for players.
if you want to work, I hear there are jobs available.
Personally, I want to play a game, not work at it.
Cyanea Dec 4th 2008 4:57PM
Your hardcore raiding tears make me happy. QQ more.
Clint Dec 4th 2008 6:17PM
Optional extrememly challenging bosses, best of both worlds.
I enjoy my games to be difficult (challenge doesn't have to mean work). That is fun. But I whole-heartedly agree that everyone should see all/most of the content.
I am sure blizzard will have vamp up the difficulty of further content. Naxx is now entry level and it *should be easy. But I will be extremely dissappointed if there isn't any content tuned to Sunwell (pre 3.0.2) difficulty.
Deathgodryuk Dec 4th 2008 7:48PM
@Clint
Prepare to be disappointed. Bliz has already said several times that Sunwell was tuned too difficult and that nothing in Wrath will be that difficult. It makes sense when only some 5% of players were ever able to experience Sunwell.
bynde Dec 5th 2008 11:37AM
As opposed to rewarding the jobless wonders that can play 24/7, right?