Ghostcrawler: If you're 80, you're hardcore
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 5th 2008 at 2:00PM
We had quite the firey argument yesterday here on the site -- first, Adam postulated that raiding was so easy we didn't even need to track it, and then I responded by saying that anyone who'd already beat the raid content was just going too fast. And now we have a response from Ghostcrawler (even though he beat us to the punch anyway by posting on Wednesday -- that's just how awesome he is). "If you're 80 already," he says on the forums, "you are a relatively hardcore player."That will ruffle a few feathers, and I should know, because I ruffled a few of the same feathers yesterday. But the stats back GC up -- it's true that most of the players in the game haven't gotten to 80 yet, and of course it doesn't mean that you're a no-life loser if you're 80; it just means that you're faster than the average player. Congrats.
But in the hopes of actually bringing this whole thing home to a place we can all agree on without flaming each other, let's take a look at the new way of doing the endgame: the regular, show up-and-fight PvE content is now for casual players. Ulduar will be harder than the current endgame, says GC, but it still won't be as hard as AQ40 and the original Naxx were in their day. And for the hardcore players, Blizzard is offering achievements and special runs -- have you finished Sartharion with three drakes yet, he asks? Have you finished all of the achievements yet (and if you have, let us know, because we'd love to post about you)? There are really hardcore, really challenging things to do in the game, still, and Blizzard is working on offering appropriate rewards for them, says GC. But the average endgame is no longer the domain of people who raid three times a week or more, and that's the way Blizzard wants it.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Blizzard, Expansions, Raiding, Bosses, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Desiree Dec 5th 2008 2:07PM
Sheesh I'm 80 already and I thought I was taking my time! :)
I had in-game friends who hit 80 a couple days after release. We also have a few hardcore guilds who've dropped major content already (Exigence on Dragonblight).
Will Dec 5th 2008 3:00PM
The title is a little misleading. I encourage everyone to read Ghostcrawler's article in context, and you'll see that the overall impression is that the content will be just a little bit easier than the BC raids by the time we have our mid-range and final endgame in play. After reading his post, I feel a lot better about the future of endgame; I don't feel like the point of his post was to say that people who are 80 already are "hardcore" (he said relatively, not that we're all Ensidia-in-training). Rather, what people have been picking up on slowly -- that there will still be a challenging endgame for those who want it, and a heck of a lot more accessible content for the casual player. As it should be. If they can add content for casuals without taking away from serious raiders, I don't see a conflict. Thanks, Ghostcrawler :)
Naix Dec 5th 2008 3:18PM
GC 1
Adam 0
Amaxe Dec 5th 2008 2:08PM
I did 80 in 3 weeks, but don't feel that hardcore. I have not run an instance further along than drak, don't have any LK epics.
Of course being underemployed I have more time to waste on the game than my friends with a full time job. (I'd switch places with them of course)
Flairy Dec 5th 2008 2:12PM
3..
2..
Galkuros Dec 5th 2008 2:14PM
@TonyMotorola
I totally agree with you. With TBC, endgame content was but a dream to me as I worked my way toward 70. No one on my server ever even downed a boss in Sunwell and very few downed bosses in the raids leading up to that.
With the changes Blizzard has brought with the expansion, I'm excited to get to 80 so I can experience the endgame content without devoting days on end to playing WoW (something my soon-to-be wife would not be happy with at all).
Cyanea Dec 5th 2008 2:17PM
"But the average endgame is no longer the domain of people who raid three times a week or more, and that's the way Blizzard wants it."
Sounds good to me. :D
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 2:20PM
"End-game content shouldn't be exclusive to those with no social life and the chronically unemployable."
why oh why do people continue to take potshots at people who play the game more or MAYBE just more effectively than themselves? honestly
it was laughable, then it was laughably cliche, and now it needs to diaf. its so tired.
Cezoram Dec 5th 2008 2:21PM
A lot of people were whining about how easy raid content was before they had even done it, only because some of the hardcore guilds had downed all of the bosses within a week. I include some WoW Insider topics in the whining. ("Is WoW too easy?" They asked over and over again in 5 different topics)
It's easier, but it's not like you can yawn and kick your feet up as you coast through end-game raiding content.
crsh Dec 5th 2008 2:22PM
"If you're 80, you're hardcore"
Yeeeeeah.. no.
Cy Dec 5th 2008 11:46PM
Might want to not use the delete key next time you quote something. You killed a word that makes all the difference.
eillind Dec 5th 2008 2:23PM
god forbid that we actually give better gear to people who arent nubs and play moar.
Brady Dec 5th 2008 2:35PM
Maybe a better solution would be rewarding epics to people who know how to construct a sentence, complete with correct spelling, punctuation, and the occasional comma?
Galkuros Dec 5th 2008 2:36PM
God forbid we learn to spell.
Kelly Dec 5th 2008 2:42PM
Your choice of vocabulary pretty much proves TonyMotorola's point. Blizzard wants to make content more accessible for non-basement dwellers. Get out of the basement, dude.
Arashikou Dec 5th 2008 2:53PM
I honestly think it isn't about epics or prestige for many of the people who are only now able to endgame raid thanks to the lowered entry bar in Wrath.
I know that for me, at least, I never got to finish what I started in TBC. I never got to see the end of the story. So for me, I just want to see what's there. I want to experience the fights and see the content. I want to hear the dialogue and see what screen-filling spectacles and lore convolutions Blizz has worked up this time. Sure, I'll get some nice gear too - but that's not WHY I raid. I'll probably never see a 25-man, which means that I'll never see the best gear in the game. I'm OK with that.
Choosing to run a heroic raid over a non-heroic one provides better loot. I've heard, anecdotally, that leaving more drakes up in the Sartharion fight gives better loot. If gear is really the concern of harder-core raiders who feel disenfranchised, then it seems to me that the real issue here is that Blizz needs to provide even more recognition of doing these tasks with handicaps turned on, (Amani bear mount, anyone?) not that the concept of letting more casual players complete the instance is flawed. Right now, Blizz is mostly offering prestige (in the form of Achievements and titles) instead of gear, and maybe that's not enough incentive.
I don't think the majority of new raiders would mind if there were more recognition going to those doing the hard things, so long as they get to keep seeing all the content they paid for. Sure, some will bitch - as you say, some will just see that as the "real endgame." (In my mind, that IS the "real endgame" even today, regardless of rewards.) Some people are always going to have an entitlement attitude, wanting everything for no effort - but that's a problem with their attitude, not the game. And again, I don't think such people make up the lion's share of new raiders.
Will Dec 5th 2008 3:07PM
As I've said before, you can't claim that anyone is ever going to see every last bit of "the content they paid for". It's more akin to a gym membership; the guy who works out five days a week for three-four hours and is in amazing shape pays the same rate as the middle-aged folks just trying to lose a few pounds. Heck, why can't I just pay $7.50 and roll Alliance only? That eliminates a good chunk of content I don't plan to see. But the big story gap-fillers (endgame raids), I would say ARE included in "the content I paid for". (Though if it mattered that badly to people to see it, there are plenty of high-quality videos online that showcase the important stuff :P save your $15/mo!)
Amai Dec 5th 2008 3:21PM
yeah, lets not let everyone (who's paying their 15 dollars a month to see content and play the game) see it! yeah!
my 15 dollars does the same thing as your 15 dollars, why shouldn't i be allowed to play the full game, including end game content, just because i don't have the time to devote to nightly raids on every instance?
oh, you explained that, i'm a "nub" who, because of actual time constraints like having to work and doing family things, living (God forbid!), can't play "moar"
sei Dec 5th 2008 2:23PM
Anyone else notice a trend on their server?
There's QQ about how easy stuff is, but at the same time they are requiring higher and higher standards to actually participate in runs. (Talking about pugs, friends are just glad we can run content together now : )
Just doesn't make sense to me.
Lemons Dec 5th 2008 3:38PM
Lol, it's always been that way. People used to say that kara wasn't serious business (towards the end of BC), but whenever I wanted to run it for a few badges I still got dbs inspecting me, telling me how to spec, saying I don't have enough hit rating and blah, blah, blah.
I get it! I like to pvp and I don't pve much, but s3/s4 gear should be enough to run the first freaking raid instance of the damn game without all the bullshit from rogues thinking they're cool cause they got 5/5 T4.