Ghostcrawler: If you're 80, you're hardcore
We had quite the firey argument yesterday here on the site -- first, Adam postulated that raiding was so easy we didn't even need to track it, and then I responded by saying that anyone who'd already beat the raid content was just going too fast. And now we have a response from Ghostcrawler (even though he beat us to the punch anyway by posting on Wednesday -- that's just how awesome he is). "If you're 80 already," he says on the forums, "you are a relatively hardcore player."That will ruffle a few feathers, and I should know, because I ruffled a few of the same feathers yesterday. But the stats back GC up -- it's true that most of the players in the game haven't gotten to 80 yet, and of course it doesn't mean that you're a no-life loser if you're 80; it just means that you're faster than the average player. Congrats.
But in the hopes of actually bringing this whole thing home to a place we can all agree on without flaming each other, let's take a look at the new way of doing the endgame: the regular, show up-and-fight PvE content is now for casual players. Ulduar will be harder than the current endgame, says GC, but it still won't be as hard as AQ40 and the original Naxx were in their day. And for the hardcore players, Blizzard is offering achievements and special runs -- have you finished Sartharion with three drakes yet, he asks? Have you finished all of the achievements yet (and if you have, let us know, because we'd love to post about you)? There are really hardcore, really challenging things to do in the game, still, and Blizzard is working on offering appropriate rewards for them, says GC. But the average endgame is no longer the domain of people who raid three times a week or more, and that's the way Blizzard wants it.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Blizzard, Expansions, Raiding, Bosses, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Gazoo Dec 5th 2008 2:26PM
The myth that Raiders have no life, or are umenployable blah blah blah, is just that... a myth.
I work 40 hours a week and have been raiding since early 2005. I've raided everything the game has to offer, previous to the Xpac. On average I raided 5 or 6 nights a week, had a job, paid my bills, maintained an active social life, kept up with my responsibilities with no problems whatsoever.
Went into TBC with full Dragonstalkers, went into WoTLK with T6 and isle badge gear, with no problem at all.
All it took was a little prioritizing and scheduling. Of course the 'casuals' are too lazy to bother. Now we have the current loot pinata instances.
WoTLK is ez-mode... if Blizz wants it that way then the raiders will find elsewhere to send our money.
Casual scrubs are just that.. no-talent players who want everything for no effort. Thanks for destroying the challenges this game used to provide.
email Dec 5th 2008 2:45PM
I have an honest question - how can you raid 5 to 6 nights a week and still have an active social life and a full time job?
I work typical 40 hours. I hang out with friends 2 or 3 nights a week. Hang at home with my husband another night or 2 a week. That only leaves 2 to 3 nights a week max to play this game and I don't always want to play this game in my free time. And those nights I play are not necessarily a raid night. When we raided in BC, that was a big commitment (4+ hours) for most of our guild, so we only did it one night a week.
I am good at this game. I am a heavy casual player. We have many players in our guild who can only play 1 night a week.
That is why us casuals (who represent the great majority of the players) think to raid that often, you must not have a life. Yes, you have prioritization -- so do I. My top priority is not this game. It looks like it is yours.
I think with this expansion, this game is no longer for the hardcore like you. You won't be missed.
Kelly Dec 5th 2008 2:46PM
"The myth that Raiders have no life, or are umenployable blah blah blah, is just that... a myth....All it took was a little prioritizing and scheduling. Of course the 'casuals' are too lazy to bother."
Cognitive dissonance in action, ladies and gentlemen.
Dan Dec 5th 2008 2:48PM
"WoTLK is ez-mode... if Blizz wants it that way then the raiders will find elsewhere to send our money."
Blizzard is fine with that. Simple business sense tells them that a small percentage of the player base is using up a majority of the server time and demanding the most new content. They also realized that these people where the only ones seeing a good portion of their content. So basically we had a situation where a large portion of the player base was paying most of the money to develop content that only a very few of them got to see.
So now that that has be rectified, the minority of players that where getting to see the highest raids are complaining that they aren't special anymore.
Salacia Dec 5th 2008 2:49PM
you raid 5-6 nights a week and maintain an active social life? when do you find time to sleep?
T Dec 5th 2008 2:54PM
Casual players are lazy and no talent? I've seen raiders with no life what so ever, and raiders that are well adjusted, normal people with kids and jobs. Calling casuals lazy and no-talent is just as unfair, pointless and ugly as it is to call all raiders hardcore basement dwelling nerds. Neither generalization is fair.
You know what I learned from your post? You're quite proud of yourself, think very little of other people, and you use your gear and status in World of Warcraft to supplement something that is missing from your real life. Self esteem.
I would hate to think you're one of those guys that sits in a capital city, AFK, with all their uber-armor on thinking everyone is admiring them. Probably not, but your post hints otherwise.
Ircasha Dec 5th 2008 3:16PM
@Gazoo
Hurm
I call shenanigans.
I too work a full time job (usually 50-60 hours a week), am married, and have social commitments I keep up with. Playing 5-6 nights a week would not allow for such unless I limited my sleeping time considerably (being an old fart, that isn't really a possibility if I wish to remain employed). No amount of mad scheduling skillz will add more hours to a day.
Asking for someone to commit from 5-6 nights a week to be able to participate in an aspect of a game is well . . . silly.
Allowing for people to be able see end game content without such a costly time commitment is just good business sense for Blizz. I don't think they will be changing that strategy anytime soon.
If such inclusion gives your ego heartburn, then it would probably be a good idea to find another game to enable you to stroke your epeen in the manner in which you so obviously need to.
I personally like the approach Blizz is taking. I no longer have the time available to raid like I did back in my EQ days and its nice to see the lore revealed and participate in major plot lines without such a steep time commitment.
andy Dec 5th 2008 3:54PM
first of all, you should have a tv show for time management, as i don't see how your schedule is humanly possible unless you've got one of those compressed sleep machines from movies.
second of all, fine. go. do you think blizzard is gonna cry as much as you are now if the hardcore raiders leave the game?
"oh hey guys, we lost 10,000 hardcore raiders due to the easier difficulty of the WotLK raids, but gained 25,000 new casual players who will all have the opportunity to see the instances we spent so much time creating."
"oh yeah, and they all pay the same amount per month, so guess who has two thumbs and isn't gonna lose any sleep over that? THIS GUY!"
Cy Dec 5th 2008 11:55PM
Don't let the door hit your ass on your way out. Oh, and can you take those Ensidia guys with you too please?
Dracula Jones Dec 5th 2008 2:26PM
I hit 80 the Sunday before Thanksgiving. I've never been a hardcore player in the almost 4 years I've been playing and I really don't think I am now, the xp just seemed to pour in doing regular quests. I didn't even play most days, just weekend grinds.
I guess it's the same relative xp gains as TBC (I hit 70 after completing BEM, with Netherstorm and SMV largely untouched, 80 halfway through Sholazar with SP and Icecrown untouched), but Outland seemed to take forever to level compared to Northrend.
miked Dec 5th 2008 3:48PM
I think our stories are pretty much the same, with the exception that I completed Sholazar and hit 80 halfway through Zul'Drak.
I definitely agree with you though- levelling 60-70 was dreadfully slow compared to 70-80. I think Blizzard did an amazing jobs with (most) zones and the quests this time around. It was much more engaging and fun than Burning Crusade.
Cy Dec 5th 2008 11:51PM
Personally I've found that Blizzard has tended to group quests and questgivers a lot closer together this time around (especially in the starting zones), which has helped save a lot of time.
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 2:27PM
i'm kind of spun up now! does anyone REALLY think they're being even the slightest bit clever calling someone who has achieved more in game than they have, basement-dweller, no-lifer, virgin, social-misfit, etc etc etc?
Honestly, is that even possible? that these people haven't heard these tired tired cliches tossed around for years, and still think they're insightful or witty in anyway?
anyways, i for one am in favor of removing raid content all together and just giving everyone their teir 9 tokens in the mail when they log in. that would truly be fair to everyone with a subscription, regardless of their time commitment.
Dysfunkshunal Dec 5th 2008 3:16PM
Good point!
You worked 40 hours per week (I assume 8 hours a day, M-F)
You raided 5-6 nights a week (Assuming 2-3 hours M-F, more on weekends)
A growing boy such as yourself probably needs 8 hours of beauty sleep a night...so...your weekdays and one weekend day are pretty filled.
That left you, what, a whole day during the week to have "maintained an active social life" and have "kept up with my responsibilities"?
I'm not saying that you are, as you stated, a "basement-dweller, no-lifer, virgin, social-misfit", but I do think your definition of "hard-core" player and "active social life" differ greatly from mine. I don't want epic loot handed out to everyone on a silver platter, either. I would, however, like to be able to see all the hard work the Blizz development team put into creating my favorite video game.
I only get to/want to play 5-10 hours per week, and I make the most of the time I get to play. I spend my much smaller amount of time focusing on making my main raid-viable, so that on those rare occasions when I am playing I can see what Blizz has created. In my opinion, this is what Blizz did with WotLK. They made intro raid content available to players who work just as hard as the "hard core", but have less time in their life to do so.
Elitist, jerk-off commentary such as spouting "'casuals' are too lazy to bother" or are "no-talent players who want everything for no effort" simply because they don't have the time to play that you do, paints you as nothing more than a troll. Please take your diatribe elsewhere.
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 3:27PM
@Dysfunkshunal
i think you're confusing me with some of what some other dude said above me.
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 3:39PM
also, Dysfunkshunal
you said you like to play 5 to 10 hours a week?
supposing you can muster up 8 hours per week regularly, thats probably enough time for 2 raid nights per week. if you could have found a guild that raided 2 nights per week in BC thats probably good enough to get into t6 content even before it got unkeyed/nerfed etc.
Xootle Dec 5th 2008 2:28PM
"And for the hardcore players, Blizzard is offering achievements"
And for those of us who don't give a rats ass? Getting the WOW equivalent of a "Gold Star" does not change the fact that at the moment raiding is just free epics. The raid content is undeniably a joke. Sartharion with three drakes is the only tough thing about raiding at the moment.
If they are considering people who are hitting 80 nearly a month after release "hardcore" I can not wait to see what "hardcore" raid content will look like.
Epic Fail.
Cy Dec 6th 2008 12:00AM
You need to learn to read better. You are hardcore relative to the overall player base.
thundrcrackr Dec 5th 2008 2:31PM
LESS QQ AND MORE GO PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME IF U THINK ITS TOO EASY. The other 10,995,000 of us won't notice you're gone.
crsh Dec 5th 2008 2:34PM
Calm down Little Johnny and go back to worrying about getting your achievement rewards before Little Paul does.