Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsGhostcrawler: If you're 80, you're hardcore
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 5th 2008 at 2:00PM
We had quite the firey argument yesterday here on the site -- first, Adam postulated that raiding was so easy we didn't even need to track it, and then I responded by saying that anyone who'd already beat the raid content was just going too fast. And now we have a response from Ghostcrawler (even though he beat us to the punch anyway by posting on Wednesday -- that's just how awesome he is). "If you're 80 already," he says on the forums, "you are a relatively hardcore player."That will ruffle a few feathers, and I should know, because I ruffled a few of the same feathers yesterday. But the stats back GC up -- it's true that most of the players in the game haven't gotten to 80 yet, and of course it doesn't mean that you're a no-life loser if you're 80; it just means that you're faster than the average player. Congrats.
But in the hopes of actually bringing this whole thing home to a place we can all agree on without flaming each other, let's take a look at the new way of doing the endgame: the regular, show up-and-fight PvE content is now for casual players. Ulduar will be harder than the current endgame, says GC, but it still won't be as hard as AQ40 and the original Naxx were in their day. And for the hardcore players, Blizzard is offering achievements and special runs -- have you finished Sartharion with three drakes yet, he asks? Have you finished all of the achievements yet (and if you have, let us know, because we'd love to post about you)? There are really hardcore, really challenging things to do in the game, still, and Blizzard is working on offering appropriate rewards for them, says GC. But the average endgame is no longer the domain of people who raid three times a week or more, and that's the way Blizzard wants it.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Blizzard, Expansions, Raiding, Bosses, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Thundrcrackr Dec 5th 2008 3:44PM
Lol, no silly, its the hardcores who are worried and QQing, not me.
/fail
PalominoMule Dec 5th 2008 2:31PM
I'm not going to insult anyone who enjoyed that hard-core end-game experience, raiding three nights a week or more. If it's fun for them, great.
But the fact is that they did represent a minority of the immense player base; a lot of people aren't in guilds, a lot of guilds don't do raiding at all, a lot of guilds that *do* raid never got past the easier stuff for a variety of reasons. Most people simply couldn't commit the time and energy necessary to reach the toughest content.
You can argue that the content was the reward for committing that much effort, and there is something to that, there should be content that takes effort, even a lot of effort, to get.
But consider the sheer amount of time and effort that goes into making a raid instance. From figuring out the lore behind it, to basic design, to artwork, to modeling, to tuning the fights, to all the polishing, designing all the loot tables - it's not an amount of sweat and blood I'd sneeze at. I may be wrong, but this is what I'm guessing.
To then know that you're spending that much time on an instance that only a small percent of the people playing the game will ever see? That can certainly seem questionable for financial reasons (is the amount of money invested in making content appealing to a group that represents only so much of our revenue efficient?), but also it's frustrating from the perspective of a creator. You put an awful lot of creativity and work into something, you're probably proud of it, and to know that most people won't ever even be able to poke their heads in and see the raid instance's ornately crafted *lobby* has to be frustrating.
Talmar Dec 5th 2008 2:33PM
I'm almost 72...almost. I've had lich king installed since the first weekend it was released.
Between my 50hr week job, wife, kids, kids school/homework etc I get to play maybe an hour a day. Sometimes the wife will hit the bed early and I'll stay up late to play upward of 3 hours (gasp).
I don't expect to see 80 for at least a month. I don't know what defines hardcore or not...I just know it's not me.
However, I do know this change will allow me to at least see some instances for the first time. I always felt punished in WoW due to my RL but now I feel I have as good a shot as any to see the end game content.
Thanks Blizzard
Sagaler Dec 5th 2008 2:35PM
I can get behind the idea that the average player can participate in the average end game experience. For those of us who are not the average player though I wish that something more than achievements were available. Something designed for those of us who wish to have a more serious challenge.
Of course then those children who whined about raiding in the first place will simply consider our harder endgame the real endgame and continue whining.
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 2:34PM
honestly, whats wrong with the purplest of purples being for the most hardcore raiders only? why is that unacceptable?
keep in mind theres purples for everyone, but only a few get the purplest.
and achievements can go right to hell. they dont look awesome on my characters in-game model
zombie Dec 5th 2008 2:52PM
keep in mind the endgame isnt even in the game yet...
btw, lawl at people who think they are hardcore at videogames. theres so many variables that come into play like time, computer speed, money, social life etc... theres no way to guage it, beat someone in a duel and then you can brag like a douchebag.
GuruTrue Dec 5th 2008 2:36PM
Some say easy... I say more accessible. Now I can raid, win, and go enjoy life with my wife and kids. Thanks Blizz!
Darsh Dec 5th 2008 2:37PM
You know, in six months, every one and their mother is going to be sick and tired of hearing the word "achievements". It's going to turn into an excuse. It already has. "Have you killed this guy with 3 drakes up yet?! Did you get your title!?!?" "Did you clear this raid...without anyone dying?!?!" Honestly, does anyone give a crap?
These things are going to turn into fall back excuses used to support a flawed argument. Please, don't do this. =(
djkronik57 Dec 5th 2008 2:40PM
Seriously though, if you got to 80 within the first week after the expansion, you are hardcore. That's what, 30-40 hours of game play? That's almost a full time job. You can't still have a job and do that. I play for an hour or two almost every day and I just dinged 76. I'd say that's pretty normal for a non-hardcore player with a full time career. There are only so many hours in a day...
Honestly I am a bit tired of all the "What to do once you hit80" and "It's too easy" content on Wow Insider, when the majority of people aren't even there yet.
/rant
Arashikou Dec 5th 2008 2:40PM
Let me try to say this in a way as nonoffensive as possible:
I think this is a brilliant move on Blizzard's part.
Before now, there was a large percentage of WoW's population who, for whatever reason, could not enjoy some of the most epic and challenging content and lore in the game. While Wrath has certainly moved more of this kind of content out of instances altogether, I am glad to see Blizzard realizing that some of this content will always have to live in the endgame raids, so therefore the best solution is to open those raids up. For many players, Wrath will be the first time they can see endgame content, experience the intensity of a raid boss fight, and actually see the story they started back at level 70 come to its conclusion. And this is because the barrier for entry into the content itself - not the highest level of prestige, but the content - has been lowered.
For those people who complete this content and are seeking a greater challenge or prestige or gear - and make no mistake, they may not be the majority of players, but they ARE legion - Blizz has provided numerous ways for players to turn up the difficulty knob on themselves and receive recognition for it. The important point is that these challenges are opt-in; the choice of how hard to make things is put in the players' hands. I remember back in the 40-man days, we had a raid where we could only get 35 people together... but our leader had the sense to go ahead with the run anyway, and we did great. (Possibly because everyone knew they had to pull their weight.) And Blizz has now had the sense to turn that kind of decision into a gameplay mechanic.
I realize there are some questions as to whether the implementation of this is sound - such as whether 25-man raids are really tuned more difficultly than 10-man raids - but in concept, I consider this the best change they could have made to the endgame. I think Mike was spot-on yesterday when he said that we just need to re-think how we track endgame progress. Boss kills may be interesting, but "world firsts with all the handicaps turned on" are the new "world first boss kills."
Cheezburgler Dec 5th 2008 3:19PM
i kind of agree. on my server our guild getting the ZA bear mounts was kind of a big deal. Being able to tune up the difficulty was lots of fun.
the achievement system is so like... pointless though. killing bosses in sunwell had real tangible rewards. and the gratification of seeing a big effing boss die.
so what you're proposing is try to match that same gratification with earning an achievement, by jumping through some arbitrary hoop.
not the same satisfaction.
shiplore Dec 5th 2008 3:28PM
This is a great post, I agree 100%, it is all about opt-in. Let there be really amazing challenges, that only 2% of the population can attain, but don't make it 40% of raid content.
shiplore Dec 5th 2008 3:39PM
@ Chez.
well no, you stated earlier "purplest of purples" and that's where the 2% hardcore hardcore don't get it.
it's not "killing" the boss, cause yes you get that same feel from Sarth with the drakes up, it's look at my huge epeen! I have purplz you don't!! I'm better than you.
which hey if you need that to feel good about yourself more power to you, and while everyone wants better gear - character development is what keeps people coming back for more - the majority of the playerbase doesn't use gear to feel good about themselves, but rather would like to see the game as much as possible.
Bizz. did many things right with WoW including breaking alot of long-held MMO conventions; they lowered the entry bar, they allowed solo play to name two big ones, mob tagging etc.. this is another vestige of this, they realise the majority of people play this for fun, not to be in the 1% of people playing it.
Personally i love this game, i spend LOTS of time playing, i have a bunch of 70s have raided and pvp'd a bit, but never once felt the need to get a world first kill or a gladiator title, i just don't care about being elite, doesn't mean i don't know how to play, or that I'm lazy, and i think i represent a large large part of the playerbase especially those over the age of 22.
Arashikou Dec 5th 2008 5:52PM
While it sounds at first blush like you two are arguing, I think you two may in fact be homing in on same truth - ultimately a sentiment that I'm hearing echoed throughout this and other threads: Cheez is saying that the reward of turning up the difficulty is not consummate with the risk. Ship is saying that most of the people who are just now getting into raiding don't care so much about rewards, and extrapolating from that, they wouldn't mind if there were more concrete rewards for turning up the difficulty. Given those two sentiments, I think Blizzard's path should be clear.
I've heard a lot of complaints that achievements and titles aren't enough. Obviously Blizz has some experience with giving better rewards for doing the hard things, such as the Amani War bear. (And playing on heroic and leaving more drakes up both, I've heard, give better loot.) I'm not sure why Blizzard didn't extend this loot-improvement to all the opt-in difficulties, but hopefully they will realize there seems to be some need for it.
I just don't want the easy access to the lowest tier to become the scapegoat for this. The easy access isn't the problem, though I see a lot of people blaming that - it's the lack of incentive to do the hard stuff. The easy access to the easy mode is great!
Spartaan Dec 5th 2008 2:45PM
Can't they find a happy medium between LK and TBC end game difficulty? I am a casual player, and I find the 5 instances I have done so far to be great a great fit for my playtime, but not for my desire for a challenge. I am one of the people that reached 70 just before LK released and have found a decent amount of equipment upgrades in BT and HF, and there are times where the game is too easy to be enjoyable. After reading thread after thread of how easy the end game is compared to the endgame of TBC, it is rather disappointing to know that the game isnt going to get all that much more difficult in the near future.
miked Dec 5th 2008 4:30PM
as others have noted, Wrath endgame isn't here yet.
RacoonKnight Dec 5th 2008 2:43PM
"And for the hardcore players, Blizzard is offering achievements and special runs -- have you finished Sartharion with three drakes yet, he asks? Have you finished all of the achievements yet "
Seriously? completing a raid with less than 25 is pointless and stupid. Achievements have ruined hardcore raiding. 10mans should be easy enough for casuals, but 25man is "Heroic" difficulty, but most fights, maybe aren't easy, but not at all challenging. Muru was the best fight ever and who love to see something that difficult come back. Though I doubt it.
In short, raiders don't want achievements, we want a challenge.
darren Dec 5th 2008 2:47PM
What? Trying to fit your strategy to a particular scenario is stupid? Are you just so unmotivated to push yourself that you have to have the challenge pushed onto you?
darren Dec 5th 2008 2:45PM
I don't get it: is your self-esteem so wrapped up in your WoW avatar's image that the challenge doesn't even matter? They give you achievements to show that you ARE better than the scrub that can barely make it through the instance, but you still bitch and whine. They have just the first few instances out, and they aren't a brick wall allowing more to see them. And at the same time, they give you challenges like "complete this instance in this scenario" which allows those who can't put in 20-30 hours a week of raiding to complete instances, while giving more purps and mounts to those that can complete the achievements. As well as bragging rights and a new measure of server firsts (not just first KJ down, but also KJ down with this scenario). Look at the 3 drakes model, it's like ZA, you get more loot for doing it on a harder mode. And yet, because someone else can EXPERIENCE the content, you bitch and moan?
You aren't no-lifers, you're just not the majority of the player base. And they haven't stopped providing you with points of pride, they've just removed the points of pride from being only the ability to kill a mob.
Cataca Dec 5th 2008 2:47PM
I think even the defintion of "hardcore" has changed. GhostCrawler I think is defineing "hardcare" as the VERY large group that now plays WoW more than 4-5 hours a day.
If you play those hours, your are not of the general populous that does not dedicate that much time to any one object.
Most people wake up at 7ish, go to work around 9ish, and get back home about 5ish. Then, most people go to bed at 11ish.
That leaves 5-6 hours a day to do what you wish. If you spend more than 4-5 hours of that free time playing wow, congrats. You are now hardcore.
Now people that complain that people that play 2 hours a day, and people that play 6 hours a day should get different gear should be looking at a different game. CG himself has said that he "...doesn't even know if that game still exists anymore..." (source http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13269086867&sid=1&pageNo=7#134)
The game is being designed for people that dedicate about 2 hours of game time a day. With some challenging things to accomplish, such as the 3 drakes up fight and other achievements for people with more time, but still doable for the rest of the players.
You can not just classify a person just because someone can not dedicate a lot of time to play the game as a "nub". There are really good people, with lots of skill out there that just don't have the time.
So if you do have a good bit of time on your hands, and you think you deserve something because of that, help some of the other people that just don't have time to do a lot. Take pleasure in that you can help someone get the same gear that you can. Not that they should not have access to that gear because their time is limited.