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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Five-man thoughts
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 7th 2008 at 8:00AM
We talked about this quickly during yesterday's podcast, but I think most of us have seen most of the instances in Wrath at this point, so we'll ask it here: what do you think of the 5-mans so far?Actually, I should say that I can't quite pass judgment yet -- I haven't visited the Halls of Stone or Lightning yet, and I haven't yet seen The Oculus, which is the instance I was most excited about at launch. But so far, I have to say that Azjol-Nerub is a standout -- not only does it look great, but the fact that it's pretty much all bosses and no trash is a real plus. And having a well-known lore figure to fight at the end doesn't hurt, either.
And of course I remain a fan of Utgarde Keep, though I think it'll eventually be like Hellfire Ramparts, in that I'll just have done it so much eventually that it'll lose any charm I have now. What are your first impressions on playing through all the five mans so far?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Expansions, Lore, Bosses, NPCs
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Wasuremono Dec 7th 2008 12:39PM
I like the shortness of the instances. I'm sorry to tell Mike this but the Occulus sucks. As a healer I hate it so much. @Piratexdave the problem is when someone dies after trying to down 6 mobs at once who are you going to blame?
The other thing is-- the instances are already short enough you don't need to do a speed run. Even if I'm at full mana going from 5 packs of trash back to back straight into a boss can be a little stressful.
Andomar Dec 7th 2008 1:46PM
The instances are fantastic in looks, feeling and new boss fights. My favourite was Azjol-Nerub which had great fights to learn.
My big disappointment is the difficulty level. You can take on any heroic right after you ding 80. When you've done 10-15 heroics, you start to feel like you're wildly overgeared.
The second disappointment is the sameness of the classes. In the Burning Crusade, you had to adopt to the group setup. In the Lich King, few groups even try to use CC, and threat is irrelevant.
The bland sameness of the Lick King compares badly to the excellent 70 dungeons and heroics of the Burning Crusade. They where a source of endless fun.
P.S. Loken on heroic is easy if you don't even try to run from his blast. Stay right in his middle. A healer can easily recover from the explosion before the next one hits.
Patrick Dec 7th 2008 1:49PM
Essentially normal dungeons are very easy. And heroics difficulty depends on the dungeon. For instance, if you run Utgarde Keep on heroic it is a joke. But if you try to do Utgarde Pinnacle with a tank without at least 30k health and stacks a high amount of Defense you're boned.
Charneldeath Dec 7th 2008 2:44PM
I've completed every dungeon in normal and heroic mode. Sure some of the heroics are ezsauce, I won't lie. However, some, light HoL, The Oculus, HoS, Guldrak, and etc, require good teamwork and situational awareness. I am happy with the dungeon design this xpac, its much improved.
aiglos Dec 7th 2008 4:04PM
The diversity is what strikes me.
I've been doing this for awhile. I've raide both as a holy pally back in the original Naxx days (class lead) all the way up to the Four Horsemen. I've also raided as prot (main guild tank). So I've seen the full gamut of situations from both sides of those coins.
I recently respecced to holy for the first time in nearly a year and a half because our guild is smallish, there are only a handful of members at 80, and those of us who are want and need gear! So, having been the only member of that group to have healed at a raiding level, I respecced.
Let me tell you -- even in normal, as a Holy Paladin, things get hairy. For example, the gauntlet in UP (which, outside of this single pull, is a complete CAKEWALK) is frustrating beyond measure as a healing class with no genuine AoE heal.
And it gets even worse if you're stuck healing DK tanks that are getting in some on-the-job training. I run with a very sensible, knowledgeable DK tank. We've been doing this together (switching tanking and healing roles over the years) for more than two and half years -- we KNOW one another really well. But the first few times I ran with him, it was an entirely new ball game.
I have NEVER been forced, EVER, to actually drop a bubble on a tank. But in order to do the UP gauntlet the first couple of times, we had to do it dirty -- run up to meet the first wave of mobs, bubble the tank before he reaches them, get settled, bubble myself, taunt half the mobs onto me, stand on top of him, let him death and decay and hold on for dear life.
As a very general rule, I really LIKE the fact that the dungeon design seems so much more intelligent. With the plethora of tanking buffs warriors and pallies received, it's CAKE (I tanked everything up through and including the Old Kingdom on normal in prot gear with an almost full ret spec). And as a healer, the trash has proven generally easier (except the COT: Strath trash which can get nasty VERY occasionally). I've also healed EVERY instance through Old Kingdom (even Halls of Stone) in holy gear as a ret spec pally.
The point is, I really like the design, non-linear feel, and extra pressure put on me to do a competent job as a pally healer. What makes me sad is that I DO NOT think that difficulty is an intended design issue -- healing as a pally feels more like a war of attrition rather than the finesse game it really is. People give pallies a hard time about being two button slam fiends. But that's really NEVER been a top end pally healer's game. We have more tricks than you realize...what we need is help in the glyph department and a genuine, good ole-fashioned, mid range AoE heal.
We don't want to be druids, priests, or shamans. I like hitting my 17-18k crit Holy Light -- thanks. I like being an on-demand, plate wearing, sometime off-tank, who drops bombs.
What I don't like is sometimes having to make choices I don't want to make. There have been several times I've had to knowingly sacrifice a member of my group to be certain the tank remained intact.
That constitutes bad and thoughtless class design and a tad of encounter overturning (*cough* third boss of The Oculus *cough*).
But on the whole, I applaud the changes wildly.
I just hope holy paladins receive a tad more love.
PimpyMicPimp Dec 7th 2008 4:21PM
way 2 hard and the loot is pretty bad
Kanuris Dec 7th 2008 4:53PM
Loken in Heroic Halls of Lightning is pretty tough thankfully, but it makes pugging the place unbareable when the group splits up because someone can't stick to Loken and run the hell out of a nova.
TonyMcS Dec 7th 2008 6:49PM
Most have seen the instances?
In your dreams. Most of us haven't got into the first one.
GC was right, bloody hardcores ;-)
Beatphreek Dec 8th 2008 11:39AM
Umm the first instances are really close to the starting zones, so you don't need to be hardcore in the slightest to get into them. If you are eligible to be in Northrend then you can at the very least get started in Utgarde Keep... nothing hardcore about that.
Precaution Dec 8th 2008 3:23AM
I like the instance' designs, the less trash, and the visual appeal, but playing a melee class, especially on heroic, there are still FAR to many bossfights and trash pulls with whirlwinds and such that eat us melee alive. The 4th boss in heroic nexus has a whirlwind that OHKOs me on the first hit, so I can't do much during the entire fight.
Kevin Dec 7th 2008 8:03PM
I honestly think there is a distinct line between heroics that are very easy and very hard. There is not much middle ground.
In my opinion the hardest heroics that require the greatest amount of skill are certainly:
1. The Old Kingdom
2. Halls of Lightning
3. Halls of Stone
4. The Oculus
5. Gundarak
I found everything else to be very easy.
Octale Dec 7th 2008 11:16PM
Nothing is the normal instances should be a challenge for any sentient carbon-based lifeform. Since you're writing and/or posting here, my suspicion is you are. Congratulations, you have all the skills necessary to complete every normal instance in Wrath.
Almost all the trash in the normal instances can be AoE'd assuming the tank in your group is competent in the least to hold aggro, and I've seen TG warriors with less than 10k HPs "tank" Drektharon Keep on normal. Things don't get remotely interesting until the heroics, and therein lies the problem.
BlizzActivision's promise of "accesability" for all, while true in the strict constructionist view of the word, falls totally flat on it's face in the heorics. Heroic Loken will be unkillable for large sectors of the playerbase without significant encounter nerfs or class buffs (and, of course, T9 epics unlocked by achievement points...). As in the TBC model, the trick is to find the "low hanging fruit" of the heroics, and farm it for everything it is worth. Thus far, my experience is Heroic Nexus is as good a place as any to start, but Heroic Drek'tharon Keep isn't too terrible, either.
I guess keep your fingers crossed that future patches add more compelling content and address the accessability issues?
Rosa Dec 8th 2008 2:14PM
Normals are only THAT easy if you're in t5 or whatever. I went into wrath in greens and a few dungeon blues because I had JUST rerolled, and I honestly found tanking pretty tricky in the early instances. The last boss of UK was a brick wall for my healer and I until we geared up.
Eredur Dec 8th 2008 1:35AM
I have the heroic Dungeonmaster achievement and I did the Culling of strat timed quest in 22 mins for the mount.
My thoughts are that some instances are unpuggable. The co-ordination required for the 2nd boss in Oculus, Loken in Halls of Lightning, the Tribunal of Ages in Halls of Stone and the 3rd boss in Pinnacle all require just one person to screw up and everyone wipes. All the other instances are pretty easy.
vexis58 Dec 8th 2008 2:30AM
I think the stories of the instances being too easy are overstated. Back in BC my boomkin druid (as healer) and my prot pally friend were running all the instances as we were leveling, wearing pretty much leveling greens we found while questing. We cleared those places so fast it was ridiculous. Our record for Ramparts was 18 minutes, for example, timed by what duration was left on my mark of the wild when we killed the last boss. None of the mobs or bosses were particularly challenging.
In Wrath, so far I'm level 65 and have completed the Nexus, UK, and both AN and AK. I'm finding that the instances are more difficult than I was expecting from the stories, but still not difficult enough to be impossible. It's a little tougher on me because I'm healing. These instances seem to have far more boss fights involving spawning mobs that go straight for me, making me heal myself until the tank pulls them off, and then more things immediately spawn and start attacking me. I die far more than I'm used to because of this. I think I need to start investing in some stamina on my gear.
So far my favorite has been Ahn'kahet. Four bosses, so it's not quite as pathetically short as some of the others. Each with a fun little trick, and that mushroom area is one of the most beautiful places I've yet seen in the game. I was amused by the last boss, since I'm boomkin spec my shadow doesn't heal, so it's really easy for my party members to break out while I shift into boomkin form and break out before they do :P it was lots of fun.
vexis58 Dec 8th 2008 2:35AM
Erm, I meant 75 of course. I'm just so not used to typing that number.
id Dec 8th 2008 5:17AM
About Azjol-Nerub trash... I realized the first boss was actually a boss only after the loot window popped up. Level 70 holy priest in BC crafted epics/S1 weapon, healing a level 76 pally tank in green/quested gear.
Utgarde and Nexus were AOE/spamheal runs-through with any kind of tank, including fresh level 70 dk's.
Basically, in all the 3 aforementioned dungeons I've seen only 2 bosses: Ingvar the Plunderer and Keristraza.
Everything else was trash.
Helbringer Dec 8th 2008 2:58PM
I've healed the hell out of every instance, over, and over, and over again. I'm exploring the world as a change of pace, but seriously, the regular Dungeons are easy with the occasional run in with a dungeon juuuust a hair in range.
Almost all of the dungeons are amazing looking, although I don't really like the UK thing, and DK is a bit of a stretch, the Oculus, AN, AK, Nexxus, etc, are just amazing to be in.
Once we hit Heroics, we were in for a rude awakening. We never did UP until Heroic, and of course, it was our first Heroic. We took a serious beating while trying to figure out how to get the boss out of the air, but with a few smart people, we figured it out. Depending on your group makeup, some instances are harder than others. If you have a pally tank (good one) Gundarak is cake. Without one, the snake boss gets kinda hairy. A Druid tank for HHoL has been my favorite choice due to hit points, and at no point have I found a DK even worth grouping with unless I want a heart attack healing HStrat. All in all, it's about the group makeup.
If you want to test your skill as a player rather than a class, HOculus will do the trick. Gotta love the dynamics of that one.
My difficulty list is as follows:
1. Heroic Halls of Lightning
2. Heroic Azul Nerub
3. Heroic Halls of Stone
4. Heroic Gundarak
5. Heroic Oculus
As a Resto Shaman, Chain Heals get me in trouble when there are a bunch of loose adds running around, but with good AoE tanks, every Heroic is cake except Oculus.
Vasslus Dec 15th 2008 2:31PM
I really liked AN overall, but I was never really pleased with Hadronox. I don't know if the boss is sometimes bugged (no pun intended) or if he's just skittish and unpredictable due to his arachnid nature. Just seems way too complicated.
Violet Hold is outstanding. It's a compact area where the bosses come to you. It doesn't require lots of running around and "where now" moments (ex. BRD) to slow things down.