Officers' Quarters: Raiding "blind"
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 8th 2008 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
As a raid leader, you say it over and over again: read the strat, read the strat, read the strat. More than anything else, reading the strategy for beating a particular boss (or watching a video of it) is the most important part of progressing through new encounters. These strategies are readily available once the hardcore guilds have figured them out, which they typically do before the boss even makes it from the beta server to live.
But what if your raid leader didn't want you to read the strat? What if he or she wanted you to learn it the way the beta guilds do? This week, one reader is faced with this situation.
Scott:
I am a mid-rank member of a fairly small and pretty casual (about 130 members) raiding guild. We had a guild meeting over the weekend and a few topics irked me a little bit. [. . .] Aside from our GL not wanting to appoint a Death Knight class leader [. . .], he insists on "raiding blind." He does not want people looking up strategies on beating the Naxx bosses.
Now, I understand wanting to pave our own way, but that is a little much. In my opinion, reading how others accomplished downing bosses and then setting out and trying to do that is difficult as it is. To my knowledge, none of our core raiders (GL and myself included) did the original Naxx. To me, dying over and over again and spending my hard-earned gold in repairs when I have three other toons that I wand to buy epic flying training for, is a waste of time. He said that "anyone caught" learning the fights ahead of time and telling others would have to sit out a few raid nights and if they did it again, it would be /guildkick for them. [. . .]
On top of all that, I've already researched most of the Naxx bosses on my own just out of curiosity. I enjoy being in my guild (I have RL friends in the same guild) but I'm curious for your take on how to handle a situation like this.
Let me get this point out of the way with first: Anyone complaining about repair bills at this point in the game doesn't deserve to be in a raid. Repair bills have barely gone up over time, whereas gold has become increasingly easier and quicker to obtain. The days of farming for hours to cover your repair costs are over. And besides, if having epic flying mounts on your alts is more important to you, then I recommend you stay out of dungeons altogether (and don't even go near Heroic Halls of Lightning).
I bring that up first because obviously you will have more repair bills if you don't read the strategies. And your progress will be slower.
To balance that out, you'll have the excitement of going into a dungeon completely unspoiled -- something very few guilds can claim! Of course, if you've already read the strats, it's too late for you. And since Naxx has been around for years, technically, it seems like most people would already have a general idea of what to do, if they don't already know the exact strategy.
But any brand new content, like the Obsidian Sanctum, the Eye of Eternity, or the upcoming Ulduar raid instance, can easily be unknown territory for most people.
So the question is, is it worth this tradeoff? That's up to the raid members. What disturbs me about this situation is that it doesn't seem like your guild leader is giving anyone a choice. It's an extreme decision, and ideally he would make sure it's what the majority of raiders wanted to do.
If he's the only one who wants to do it that way, your other officers need to step up and have a talk with him. But before that happens, I think everyone involved should really think about this choice.
There's been heated debate lately about the difficulty (or lack of difficulty) of the Wrath raids. Many guilds have already blasted through all the content. All that's left for them is to farm it or go for special achievements. When they've done that, maybe they'll start gearing up alts. When they've done that, they'll be waiting, bored, for new content.
So if it takes you a month to clear Naxx instead of one week, you are definitely behind the curve on gear and content. You might have to wait a while before you can open up the Eye of Eternity. But while the other guilds are bored, you'll still be having fun -- and you'll have the bragging rights that you did it the hard way.
If you still don't want to raid that way, there's nothing wrong with voicing that opinion. If your guild leader won't listen, it's his prerogative to ignore you. But it's also yours to raid with other people, on your own terms, if you want to. If most people in your guild feel the same way you do, finding players to fill the slots might not be that difficult. Make sure you explain what you're doing and why to your guild leader, so there are no misunderstandings. He might actually ask you to leave the guild, and then you'll have a decision to make.
Even so, if I were you, I'd at least try to do it the way your guild leader wants to. You might not wipe as much as you think you will. Most of the fights in Naxx are pretty easy to figure out after a few tries. Very few of the encounters are as complex as most Outland raid bosses are. And some fights can basically be overpowered by competent DPS and healing without knowing the strategy at all.
Is anyone else raiding "blind"? I'd love to hear about it below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Ryan Dec 8th 2008 7:59PM
Raiding Kara Blind was both Fun and a Guild Killer.
JPN Dec 8th 2008 1:13PM
Sounds like someone's got control issues!!
Dracknol Dec 8th 2008 1:18PM
I myself like the idea of going in "blind" into the raids seeing as how i haven't done them myself yet. As a matter of fact i would like to get into a guild that works in that sense because to me that is more fun doing the raids/heroics our own way at first. Who cares about a few repair bills here and there
fauxbo Dec 8th 2008 4:32PM
I tried this with the guild I was an officer in for a while when ZA came out.
Basically we had two groups running, one that read strats and one that didn't. People could pick which group they wanted to run with.
Most people who started with the 'blind' group switched before the bear boss was down.
ObiChad Dec 8th 2008 1:20PM
The guild I am in is planning on raiding blind although we have not started yet. So far most people are pretty excited about figuring things out as we go, although there are a few hold outs. If it's something the guild is interested in, I think it can be a lot of fun. We have greatly enjoyed figuring out the dungeon bosses so far. If it's something the leader is forcing people to do against their will, that's not cool. In our case we have talked about reading strats if we wipe for a night and don't feel like we are learning anything on each attempt. It remains to be seen how blind we will actually be.
Tinwhisker Dec 8th 2008 1:20PM
I have a hard time believing any guild could 'raid blind'.
The strats for Naxx have been out there for years and nothing has changed enough to negate them. Curiosity is powerful, insanely powerful. I imagine that even if the raid does stick to this strategy, people will ignore it and just not talk about it.
I imagine a situation where the raid comes to a new boss and it's a one-shot. The raid leader calls it a huge success and a triumph for his ideals when in reality is was just a success because the entire raid had read the strats and just didn't tell each other about it.
Then you're left with a guild of players who feel obligated to lie to each other and keep secrets, not a great foundation for trust.
Thomas Dec 8th 2008 1:33PM
Well, after talking to the few people I know personally in my guild, the general feeling is that the GL is not making the right choice. While it could be fun to learn all the fights ourselves (and there still is a degree of that even if you know the general idea behind the fight), we are very casual guild and only raid two nights a week. Myself and others would like to get the most out of the limited time we raid.
Saelorn Dec 8th 2008 1:21PM
This is what I would refer to as "hardcore" raiding. It certainly isn't my style, but it has definite rewards for those who are willing to put forth the effort. It's all about determination.
Oz Dec 8th 2008 1:21PM
I agree completely with Scott on the fact that repairs are not really that outrageous anymore. Even plate costs can be covered with minimal effort.
That said, I think there is something appealing about raiding "blind." It is a great opportunity not only to build your guild's team play skills, but also good for building situational awareness. It makes instances feel less mechanical and turns them into truly dynamic, memorable encounters. There is also a huge feeling of accomplishment after you figure out why a boss that has been the bane of your existence for so long has been owning you like a fat kid owns a box of twinkies. It definitely makes the victory that much more memorable.
Is this a newly formed guild? Was "blind raiding" an aspect of the guild charter? If not, then the GLs insistence on blind raiding is indeed a bit over the top. I think a member vote on an issue like this would definitely be in order.
Anyhow, just my two copper's worth.
Twystid Dec 8th 2008 1:23PM
Back in the day when BWL was the king, I was in a casual guild that raided MC, and we'd been raiding MC for probably a year or so before we finally downed Rag.
We prided ourselves on being the casualest raiding guild ever!
Anyways, when AQ was released and finally opened, I spearheaded an attempt to do AQ20 "blind" as well. There were a bunch of people who wanted to get in there are wipe it clean as quickly as possible, but I wanted to experience LEARNING how to raid the instance, instead of just following the recipes put forth by the guys on the Test Realms.
I just wanted to try it, and there were enough of us interested in raiding blind that we were able to schedule a raid the day after the gates opened (after the lag had died down enough to actually log into the server). We went in there, and wiped to the ridiculously hard-hitting trash before we were like, "Hmm... maybe two tanks?" and we went on to get all the way to Kurinaxx.
There, we found out ourselves about the mortal strike, and the exploding sand, and all sorts of fun, neat things, and we didn't read the strats; we found out about them. We spent 5 minutes discussing what we saw, what happened to us, and it felt like we were raiding uncharted territory, and we were making progress. After 2 wipes, we downed Kurinaxx and felt overjoyed that we'd done so without any guidance whatsoever.
Then we got to the event =P
We wiped probably 5 times without progressing much, and I got tells from some raidmembers who were complaining that other raidmembers were giving out "hints" and explaining the abilities. I sent a tell to the offenders, re-explaining the nature of the raid, and asked them to keep their "hints" and ideas to themselves (since any publicly offered "ideas" would undoubtably be tainted by their prior knowledge).
I had already realized that, sooner or later, everyone was going to see videos and read strats and whatnot - it's tough to keep away from new content. I, and much of the raid, just wanted 1 day to try it out as if it were totally new content that no one had seen before. We didn't get through the event in AQ20, but many of us had a fun time learning it anyways. After that first raid, we had all agreed that we'd read up on the strats, because otherwise interest would decline too quickly.
We did something similar for when ZG came out: a group of us dived into the content as soon as it came out, and we raided with no one knowing the strats beforehand.
From this experience, I concluded that, as a 1-time deal for brand new instances, raiding blind can be a lot of fun. But the reality of the situation is that it loses its charm very quickly for many raiders. Progress is more important than idealistic "blind raiding" for a majority of people. With raids, one of the biggest challenges is actually GETTING enough people in the group to raid in the first place. Trying to get over that first hurdle once for a chance at blind raiding was tough enough for me... I can't imagine trying to jump it once a week (or more!).
Personally, I'd encourage the GM to suck it up and let people read the strats. Chances are they already do, anyways. If he refuses to listen to reason (the reason, of course, being the majority's wants/desires), then you may be better off somewhere else, where the guild leader cares more about what's good for the guild than his own personal idealism.
Yada Dec 8th 2008 5:43PM
In our guild adequate preparation is required. That includes reading as many strategies as possible and watching as many movies as possible.
VSUReaper Dec 8th 2008 1:26PM
"Anyone complaining about repair bills at this point in the game doesn't deserve to be in a raid."
You are making a HUGE assumption here - that he has time to go farm the gold, either via dailies, questing, or professions. We also dont know his class. If he's a tank, and just blew a bunch of gold on crafted gear and gems, hes going to be hurting on gold. Maybe he just bought the Kirin Tor portal ring, or some other large investment - We just dont know.
While gold is in abundance now, you should never assume that someone can get on and make a ton of it quickly, especially if he's a tank and dealing with alot of wipes as he learns the new heroics.
As for the actual matter at hand, speak to the GM of your opinion and concerns. If he penalizes you for being proactive and researching before you had to, then I'm sure many other guilds would love to have someone who is willing to put in the time to learn the fights ahead of time. It will be his loss.
Worst case scenario, just try the blind thing. Keep your mouth shut, dont offer advise, and put in the few wipes.
pax368 Dec 8th 2008 1:36PM
No, hes absolutly right, anyone that complains about "costs" for anything while raiding just doesnt put in the time or effort to actually raid effectively. Doing heroics, even as a tank, i MAKE money. At just under 5g a boss kill doing 4 bosses in CoT if you make the timed event thats 20g, my repair bill, 13g. And that doesnt count the enchanting mats, greens, boe blues and cloth that drop like candy in heroics. Theres very little you can do in game and NOT make money.
Several of our raids members do complain about the cost, there are two of them, and they took the weekend off to hit 80, and then now only log on to raid, thats it. If thats your idea of a "raider" then most of the time you really shouldnt be "raiding".
Duffy Dec 8th 2008 2:46PM
Really? Cause I could of sworn with the consumable changes and the proliferation of 10mans Blizzard was moving away from having to "qualify" as a raider by spending time not raiding. And as one of those previous "qualified" raiders, I wholeheartedly embrace these changes to my schedule.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Dec 8th 2008 2:48PM
I agree with this.
It's rather funny how a lot of people don't mind screwing about with OTHER's people gold and time. "Go farm a daily, go do this." Um, I shouldn't have to if I want to raid properly.
Some of us don't like wasting our money on unnecessary repair bills when doing the damn instance right the first time is better.
If people agree on doing it blind, great for them, but if it's one person forcing others to do it, then BOO - HISS.
Clevins Dec 8th 2008 4:33PM
Oh please. Normal quests give 5g or more. A stack of Frostweave sells for 30-50g. You'll get repair costs just playing the game. Now, if you want to login for the raid, hearth out afterward and not play at all aside from that, yeah, there's a problem. But it's not with the repair costs.
Janaa Dec 8th 2008 8:50PM
Agreed VSUReaper - thought that comment from the blogger extremely arrogant and narrow-minded. Maybe the author has nothing better to do than sit around playing with the computer all day, but some of us literally don't have the time to farm gold if we're working full-time and raiding weeknights.
Kara pre-nerf, before the elixir change, I was easily going through 1000g a week in repairs and raid mats while we were learning the instance. We were running it pretty blind because we enjoyed learning the fights, happy to take hints and advice, but we weren't exactly sitting there studying videos of the fights over and over. The place is an absolute joke even at 70 now, of course, but for a while it was pretty hard-hitting.
However, I work 5 days full-time, and at that time were raiding 5 nights a week from when I got home (7pm) until bed-time at midnight. The weekend I got off raiding, but was instead spent in the company of my girlfriend, so there was literally no time to farm gold. (Surely Scott "Hardcore means you're a Virgin" Andrew doesn't think farming for raid mats comes before romance in RL?). We were 1-shotting the place in a few weeks and got some breathing room for a couple of days a week eventually, but if we'd been raiding completely blind, unable to give good advice for killing the bosses, unable to use Deadly Boss Mods (true raiding blind), etc - the expense would have been much much greater. I'd CERTAINLY complain about epic plate repair costs when I have no time to farm, and I was a raid-leader!
I've been playing this game since launch. Virtually all the time I'm not taking care of myself, working, or the weekends I spend with my significant other, I'm playing the game. It's a great source of entertainment. I spend down-time learning strats, reading blogs, finding upgrades for gear, researching builds, etc.
How dare some random blogger nobody tell me I don't deserve to raid? Last piece of shit blog I'll ever read by this guy.
Harkle Dec 30th 2008 11:28AM
You are kidding? No one suggested Farming. You want an epic mount.. ok.. start farming. you want a HOG.. start farming.
But to pay for repairs? no. 1 day of dalies per week will pay for any repair costs I have for the week and all my flights to the different dalies.
I know that the dalies on the Isle don't give much money anymore. but there are more than 10 on there that can be completed fairly quickly considering. The NR dalies give alot more, but honestly, the ones in the south are spread out. I haven't even done the Dalies in the Higher level zones yet. I understand that there are quite a few.
Me.. I farm, because it helps my guidies with greens to disenchant and cloth. Only money I make on it is greys to sell and cash loot. everything else is given away. and I only farm maybe 2-3 hours a week.. tops.
If you raid 5 days a week.. and that is all you have time for.. then perhaps you should simply opt out of raiding for 1 of those days. Go hammer out your dalies. 10 NR Dalies will give you in excess of 100 gold. very doubtful that you will spend that much in repairs in a week.. or even a month.
After a normal raid or Heroic. I pay about 5 or so gold in repairs.. A very poor raid, might net somewhere in the 10-15 gold in repairs. The Days of Guilds having to pay for repairs is over.
dfgreat1 Dec 8th 2008 1:27PM
I am all for going in blind. At least the first time. Looking up strategies is like reading the end of a movie before seeing it. It just sucks because you don't get to experience anything. I don't know why so many people don't get that. Looking at all the numbers and game mechanics really waters down the experience for me.
pax368 Dec 8th 2008 1:27PM
I saw all the old Naxx content back in the day and so hasnt a majority of my guild, either at 60 or on some old school raids on weekends at 70.
That being said a lot of the encounters take a new look with new abilities, boss ability tweaks, and just general changes to raid composition which can greatly change your strategy for each and every boss.
Also if you go in there on 10 man, its basically a dry run for the 25 man version so everyone suddenly knows all the fights. The only fight that isnt pretty much completely the same is Instructor Ras which requires mind control on 25 man and on 10 man gives you orbs to MC with.
And Malygos is an interesting fight on its own without having to try and learn it from scratch. How to kill him varies wildly on how many and of what class your bringing.
Basically your GL is on a power trip and needs to be told to chill out, for many people the fights are interesting enough without having to wipe in the first 10 seconds because no one was off tanking on Patchwerk.