GC on the Deterrence change and the future of Hunter melee
When the Hunter changes dropped earlier this week, I understood the Volley change, and I even got the Kill Shot cooldown drop, but the one I really didn't understand was the Deterrence change. Like BRK said, it seemed pretty useless: sure, becoming immune to damage for five seconds helps survivability in the Arenas, but what's to stop people from just continuing the kill after that. And the directional effect was just perplexing as well.Now, Ghostcrawler has provided some background on the change, and while it still doesn't make much sense, at least we have an idea of where Blizzard is coming from. First things last, the directional ability is still being tested and may not make it to the live game. But the ability itself is designed specifically for Arena, as we'd guessed. And even more strangely, he says the reason they wanted to change the spell was to make it different visually -- letting the Hunter see themselves parrying every single attack while their backup helps them out. That argument may not find much ground in the numbers-driven Arena crowd, but GC says lots of times, a strong visual can give what seems like a useless spell a lot of use. Interesting look into Blizzard's design philosophy -- they don't program the numbers, they program how it plays.
Finally, he says that Hunter melee damage is being looked at -- they are primarily a ranged class, but the problem now is that it's all or nothing. Either you're in a Hunter's barrage or you've closed to melee and they're not a threat. If they can put the sting back in melee, GC says (within a few patches -- this is long term), then they'll give them more viability "to flee or stand and fight." We'll have to see what Hunter's think about that one when we get more specifics.
Filed under: Hunter, Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Classes, Wrath of the Lich King, Arena
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Callidon Dec 12th 2008 7:06AM
" Melee Hunters?! Thats about as hilarious as a mage tank! "
You've obviously never been to Gruul's then.
Icemaned Dec 11th 2008 4:23PM
OK, so what good are we hunters now?
ALL of our DPS got nerfed.
We're nerfed, our pets are nerfed and now we may be able to melee, geez thanks for nothing.
We'll surely not get any good groups now if any.
So what do we classify ourselves as? Former DPS LFG!
Duffy Dec 11th 2008 4:46PM
Our dps barely got nerfed, in fact I would not use the phrase nerf as I doubt it will change our standings on any dps charts. We were brought into line with other classes, just as other classes also received minor nerfs and buffs to bring them up to or down to the line.
pdkm Dec 11th 2008 4:57PM
The problem with your argument, Duffy is that Hunters are less gear dependant than most classes. As their gear quality increases, their dps will increase by large margins while hunters lag behind. This is why in early wrath, hunter dps seemed to be skewed, where the reality is that as rogues, mages & warlocks delve into 25 Naxx they will soon catch up & indeed outpace our dps numbers.
This nerf is unnecessary and will only lead to more difficulty justifying hunter dps in a raid environment. Why bring a hunter when they do roughly the same dps as Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladins, Moonkin and those classes have so much more to offer the raid group's overall dps from buffs?
I'm not ready to hang up my bow yet, but I am concerned.
Artemizz Dec 11th 2008 8:41PM
Bring the player, not the class.
Just saying.
Pretty sure Blizz will back me up on that one.
Harmun Dec 11th 2008 4:24PM
I think we've gotten to the point that most hunters who still play are more pve oriented than pvp. This deterrence change is going to have a minimal impact on pve, so has a minimal impact on most of the players.
Will Dec 11th 2008 5:06PM
Right, cause the major nerf to PvE damage output across all specs isn't something that bothers most hunters. I know this post is about Deterrence, but trying to calm down hunters by telling them "look, we buffed Deterrence for arenas!" isn't much consolation.
Derek Dec 11th 2008 4:31PM
Melee hunter? What?
What's next? Melee mage? Warrior's with long range spells?
I understand Blizzard wanting to balance the game, but people have to remember classes do balance one to one. They all balance each other collectively.
If you want melee, roll a rogue.
Clete Dec 11th 2008 4:33PM
Take note that they're saying the changes are intended to make us "more" viable at close range. We're only slightly better at being in close than clothies, and our best melee skill is about getting us back to range again. I'm sure there is a middle ground between Rogue-type melee viability and the hunter formula of wing clip/scatter shot, drop trap, disengage. Sounds to me like they're just trying to make it so we are somewhat less horrible at close combat.
jbodar Dec 11th 2008 7:32PM
Woot, someone who gets it!
Xodense Dec 11th 2008 4:46PM
Is GC stupid?I'm no expert in Arena, hell, never been in a match before, but even in BG, I've never carted about melee in the slightest, I'm a fucking bow/gun wielding DPS'ing SoB and could care less about getting off a mongoose strike or raptor strike or however they're supposed to be.
This is like giving Rogue an actual reason to use a ranged weapon. Why the hell to hunters need to melee? Concussion shot, drop a trap, and run , circle around and hit'em again. Pets are a Hunters answer to melee, so fuck off GC, we do fine with what we have.
Lyraat Dec 11th 2008 5:01PM
"I'm no expert, hell, never been in a match before"
Go play a match against a rogue and a fury warrior then revisit your comments. In the meantime, never comment on hunters. Period.
Aurigo Dec 11th 2008 5:16PM
hey, guess what? Shadow Priest have something like that too, called Dispersion, except for it generates 20% mana back and is a 51 pt talent. Please consider that before you start QQ'ing that "OMG MY CLASS IS THE ONLY ONE NERFED TO THE GROUND /QUIT"
Daniel Dec 11th 2008 11:11PM
Could you imagine if Hunters, by spec, could be either Melee DPS or Ranged DPS? Like the way DKs can either tank or dps?
Narin Dec 11th 2008 5:28PM
I think people might be misinterpreting this a bit... I think they want hunters to be able to do something in melee, but I don't think it's going to be Rogue-level damage or anything :P
I'm thinking this is more a change to let hunters finish off targets they've weakened significantly, instead of having them helplessly autoattack when slowed.
Clbull Dec 11th 2008 5:42PM
If thats what GC is trying to do, then heres a suggestion seeing as Deterrence no longer parries and dodges attacks.....
Remove the parry requirement for Counterattack. It would remove the annoying RNG requirement for a useful kiting ability.
Bryan Dec 11th 2008 6:00PM
Why not just introduce a point blank shot, only usable in melee range? Or the dead distance between melee and ranged? A point blank shot would solve many problems, you can make it instant cast with a 30sec cooldown? Give us some option, we are a ranged class, so let us use our ranged weapon in close proximity. I would understand if we wielded rpgs, but bows, xbows, and guns?? Cmon... Doesnt make much sense to me.
Anaughtybear Dec 11th 2008 6:48PM
I apologize for the length in advance. Here we go.
We do not need melee damage.
Do not listen to melee huntards.
Wasn't that the whole point in redesigning the class in the first place, to gain methods to distance yourself from melee and do sweet ranged DPS? Now Blizzard is coming up with some horseshit idea that hunters do too much ranged damage and want to add melee.
This idea is ridiculous. That's why warriors suffered for so long: because Blizzard looks at only one aspect at a time. Sure, warriors had plate, but then paladins got force fields, plate and healing. Is that fair to warriors? No. Warriors cannot heal, therefore needed a sweet ability like Titan's Grip. Likewise, all hunters have is ranged DPS.
Yes, hunters do decent damage, but that's what they are for. Don't try to explain away nerfing hunter DPS because it's "too high." They are not a hybrid class with heals or other abilities. They serve a very specific function. In my opinion, they should be allowed to do that job without being messed with every month or so. As for the high DPS, My death knight tears though mobs much quicker than my hunter at this point, in worse gear.
Perhaps if Blizzard had really understood the class years ago, they would have paid more attention to them and not made so many obvious mistakes with the hunter class. Can you name another class that has changed so drastically in the last year? From ghost wolves to finally overhauling the pet system, it's been clear that Blizzard really had no clue what they wanted to do with hunters.
Gutting Steady Shot is a kick in the teeth, but I guess I could live with these changes if they reverted Kill Command to it's pre-Wrath workings. Growl obviously needs a boost as well. Everyone knows this.
I think most players also know that what made hunters great for solo play also makes them poor in PvP. Blizzard seems to think that PvE and PvP are the same thing, and is trying to balance the class according to that. Guess what? Growl doesn't mean a thing in PvP, but we still need to have it. Simply, the Arena numbers are all you need to look at to see how well Blizzard has done balancing the class.
jbodar Dec 11th 2008 7:44PM
I think the idea is that, from a class design view, they don't want Hunters to be able to 100% kite any and every melee class. It just isn't balanced. So, the intention is to make it so the Hunter is not completely screwed UNTIL, for example, a CD is up, and he CAN get to ranged again to do more "sweet ranged DPS" as someone else put it.
Last I checked, Hunters carried axes and wore chainmail, not a stick and a dress. Those should be for more than just impressing the ladies, at least in Survival spec.
Agrotho Dec 12th 2008 1:01AM
Agreed on all counts. I make this comment pre-"nerf" but as I hunter I have no problems getting into PUG groups. Misdirection is a fantastic skill for getting a 10 or 25 man tank started. Hunters are more or less a controlled turret: we plant, aim, and fire. Anybody who has played a hunter for a long period of time understands that there is some trade off between have dmg advantage in PvE and a slight disadvantage in PvP.
IMHO, it's not blizzard's job to make all classes totally equal. The idea of adding melee abilities to survival tree to make it a "PvP tree" doesn't make sense either. As another poster said, we would become a rouge with a pet.
We took on the risk when we didn't pick up a hybrid class.