Forum post of the day: A Rogue without a cause
by Amanda Dean 
Dec 15th 2008 at 4:00PM
Maximogu of Firetree posed the question "Why bring a Rogue to an 80 heroic?" in the general forums. He claimed that at this point there CC is unnecessary for most tanks that rely on AOE. Most of the trash pulls are handled by AOE classes now, making the Rogue's single target focus obsolete. He argued that Rogues are best suited with Druid tanks that do not handle multiple mobs as well as other tanking classes do.Here are some of the reasons given for bringing a rogue along:
Anushka of Kel'Thuzad: There's a lot of nasty things that can be interrupted in most heroics. Though I wouldn't take more than one rogue.
Khadros of Frostwolf: To listen to the sound of theirs daggers going schlick schlick schlick.
Morgrimm of Korgath: Because one of my friends is a rogue.
Owari of Frostwolf: To DPS, of course.
Mypetgoat of Bladefist: It's one expendible DPS that won't roll on my gear.
Madia of Maelstrom: They need loot and stuff too.All of these responses seem pretty trivial, but hint that in most cases Rogues are still welcome in a heroic group. This discussion brings a few questions to mind:
Have Rogues been rendered obsolete in contemporary PvE?
Should Rogues be given AOE abilities in order stay in the game?
Why am I leveling a Rogue, anyway?
I like this AOE business about as much as I like wearing heels in the mud. As a tanking Druid I'm still a fan of CC, which may make me seem like an over-cautious worry wart. Though it is not as spectacular as watching a Paladin burst down an entire pull, I find that CC helps reduce the number of corpse runs back to the instance. In the end I find this completes the instance faster. When I DPS with an AOE tank, I snarl and sneer just a little when I have to come out of cat to cover Pally who bit off more than the healer can chew.
There are some challenges to this method however. I have to count on my party members to avoid breaking CCs and be prepared to re-up their traps, polymorphs, roots, etc when necessary. I have less trouble with Rogues breaking CC than most AOE DPSers. When I take the time to mark pulls, I still find it hand for folks follow the target order. I PUG more or less everything and many times I find folks bored with, or unwilling to follow my strategy. Does this mean that Bear tanks are also obsolete?
Maybe I'll find it hard to find groups in the future, but for now, I think I'll keep a Rogue in my pocket. We relics from a bygone era need to stick together.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
sotallytober Dec 15th 2008 4:07PM
Rogues are solid dps. Also, if you have another solid dps they get a 15% boost every 30sec (tricks of the trade).
Naix Dec 15th 2008 4:46PM
Solid DPS rogues may be, but who isn't these days? Tank classes like Warriors, Paladins, Bears, and Death Knights are pumping out some mad DPS these days. Heck my goal is just to stay above the tank on the DPS charts and that is hard to do. Rogues are amazing single target DPS class, but thats where they fall short. No group utility. If Blizzard were to give rogues a skill that every time they crit the raid got a haste buff or something. Now that would makes rogues waaay more attractive in a raid.
zappo Dec 15th 2008 5:06PM
"Now that would makes rogues waaay more attractive in a raid."
They already have that. See 'master poisoner' and 'savage combat'.
DeadNite Dec 15th 2008 8:30PM
Like what has been stated. Rogues are truly solid DPS. There stuns and interrupts are priceless. They can save the healers, they can save the squishies and still put out some crazy DPS. Most rogues I play with are top notch, I don't know any reason I wouldn't play with them. AOEers might do more damage overall but they are also doing less single target DPS. Since most pulls always have that one mob with like...twice the HP of the others, having a a rogue always helps if everyone else is AOEing. I prefer fast target markings and single target burns because they tend to go ALOT smother then most AOE groups. No unneeded wipes, Mage or healer getting gibbed because of aggro, or stopping every couple of pulls for everyone to mana up.
PS: Rogues will have some decent AOE damage with the upcoming patch. Adrenaline Rush + Fan of knifes + Dagger = Can someone rez the rogue please?
James Dec 15th 2008 4:08PM
Guess this person has never seen a HAT rogue pull 4-6k dps in a crit heavy group...
Worcester Dec 15th 2008 4:20PM
Yeah, HaT is awesome. Finally, some raid utility for us Subtlety rogues. We do have an AoE now, right? I'm not 80 yet, but I think that's when you get Fan of Knives.
And that's kind of the point... one DPS is much like another. You might not "need" a Rogue, but if you need DPS, we're pretty reliable.
I find also as a rogue I need a lot less attention from healers or tanks. If I draw aggro, so what. I can drop it too. Low health? Vanish, for the win. Rogues (especially Sub) excel at surviving.
So take the player, not the class. I'm usually the first one to pull trash off a healer or caster, and my Goblin Jumper Cables have saved more than one wipe!
Riley Dec 15th 2008 9:11PM
also, evasion helps a lot
temporary rogue tanking ftw
aikuchi Dec 15th 2008 4:14PM
I think most people are over-exagerating. I have no problem finding groups, staying in groups, or doing damage in heroics.
Fire Dec 15th 2008 4:11PM
Yeah, rogues are solid dps. There are alot of solid dps that can rez, backupheal, or even off tank.
I have an enhancement shaman, holy/shadow priest, and a rogue. Rogues need a major damage buff
Ninjairl Dec 15th 2008 4:12PM
HaT rogues are the exception to my rant, FOR THE TIME BEING... but I'm sure the "bug" that is so ensential to HaT being most effective will soon be corrected.
Tarean Dec 15th 2008 5:28PM
You're joking, right? A damage buff for rogues?
Ninjairl Dec 15th 2008 4:11PM
Yes, Rogue's ARE pointless. Our CC is lackluster at best, and a lot of the time useless, "kick" is one of MANY interrupts the game includes, our "aoe" (if you can call it that) SUCKS atm, and even without a cooldown will STILL suck ass, we have ZERO.. count it... ZERO buffs to bring to a raid and our group members, and to top ALL of it off... WE'RE NOT EVEN THE BEST SINGLE TARGET DPS ANYMORE. Why take a Rogue when you can take a Death Knight with their numerous useful skills, or take a shadow priest or even a warrior.
Rogues have lost their value at any level and can be replaced in an instant. "My friend plays a rogue" or "Rogue's need loot too" are very thoughtful reasons to bring us along and I honestly thank you. But our necessity is ZERO in ANY raid or instance.
We need a buff, and not a skill bufg or stat buff... we need a USEABILITY buff. Because right now we're pointless.
Jasperwind Dec 15th 2008 4:47PM
I have a 77 rogue. I know how to play and have pretty decent gear. I do a lot of dps, but just not as much as that one DK in the group. I always fall 2nd in dps to a DK. If I'm ever first in dps, it's because we don't have a DK. I'm usually outdone about 100-300 dps by a same level DK. It's pretty sad when I'm a rogue and can't justify my spot.
Deathgodryuk Dec 15th 2008 8:31PM
Are you serious? The only people I come behind in raids is a ret pally who is geared better than I am and a hunter because their pets do WAAAAAAAAY too much damage and they're going to get nerfed anyway. And I'm not even a HaT rogue, I'm Combat.
If you're a rogue and you're not in the top 3 dps there are two explanations. Either the other dps is better geared than you or you aren't that good of a rogue. Any rogue who knows their class and plays it well does just fine in a raid.
...it just happens that those rogues are few and far between apparently.
Ketten Dec 16th 2008 2:14AM
There are several things you're leaving out. First, like hunters, we have another misdirect, which is good for not only initial threat generation, but also increases the tank's threat gen as well.
Also, FoK + BF = HAX. Blade Flurry procs off your main hand EVERY TIME it hits during FoK. That's 3 per mob. So, if you TotT --> BF + Killing Spree --> Fan, you're probably going to be topping the chart during a 3-4-pull if you're geared approximately equally with the other dps in the group.
I know that this is only once every two minutes. But, if you manage your cooldowns properly, you KSpr every minute, AR every 4 minutes (you have the glyph, right?), you TotT every 30 seconds, etc. In my guild, our rogues are our best melee dps right now, and we're equivalently geared to our other melees.
As it's been said before, take the player, not the class. A rogue that knows what they're doing isn't going to be too terribly far behind in the meters.
Percolatte Dec 15th 2008 4:11PM
I PUGed with a Rogue the other day that kept trying to tank mobs on their own. When asked why, they responded "I like to fight". Rogues have a terrible reputation for a reason, but it's a shame. I appreciate great rogue DPS and deplore horrible rogue DPS. No other class is so hit or miss.
hpavc Dec 17th 2008 7:00PM
i agree, this whole thread is full of why i hate grouping with rogues ... dps meters dps meters dps meters.
they are only out done by the amped out pyroblast pull'ing mages.
Todd Dec 15th 2008 4:12PM
"He claimed that at this point there CC is unnecessary for most tanks that rely on AOE."
there = their
Kotathalas Dec 15th 2008 4:48PM
Way to go Todd, you win. You beat the spelling portion of this competition, and reign supreme! Congratulations.
Todd Dec 15th 2008 5:02PM
Heh, wow, you're a dickhead. Congrats with that.
Sometimes the authors do correct mistakes written, even simple ones, when people point them out.
...but you must be the sensitive type, troll.