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The latest patch 5.4 newsForum post of the day: A Rogue without a cause
by Amanda Dean 
Dec 15th 2008 at 4:00PM
Maximogu of Firetree posed the question "Why bring a Rogue to an 80 heroic?" in the general forums. He claimed that at this point there CC is unnecessary for most tanks that rely on AOE. Most of the trash pulls are handled by AOE classes now, making the Rogue's single target focus obsolete. He argued that Rogues are best suited with Druid tanks that do not handle multiple mobs as well as other tanking classes do.Here are some of the reasons given for bringing a rogue along:
Anushka of Kel'Thuzad: There's a lot of nasty things that can be interrupted in most heroics. Though I wouldn't take more than one rogue.
Khadros of Frostwolf: To listen to the sound of theirs daggers going schlick schlick schlick.
Morgrimm of Korgath: Because one of my friends is a rogue.
Owari of Frostwolf: To DPS, of course.
Mypetgoat of Bladefist: It's one expendible DPS that won't roll on my gear.
Madia of Maelstrom: They need loot and stuff too.All of these responses seem pretty trivial, but hint that in most cases Rogues are still welcome in a heroic group. This discussion brings a few questions to mind:
Have Rogues been rendered obsolete in contemporary PvE?
Should Rogues be given AOE abilities in order stay in the game?
Why am I leveling a Rogue, anyway?
I like this AOE business about as much as I like wearing heels in the mud. As a tanking Druid I'm still a fan of CC, which may make me seem like an over-cautious worry wart. Though it is not as spectacular as watching a Paladin burst down an entire pull, I find that CC helps reduce the number of corpse runs back to the instance. In the end I find this completes the instance faster. When I DPS with an AOE tank, I snarl and sneer just a little when I have to come out of cat to cover Pally who bit off more than the healer can chew.
There are some challenges to this method however. I have to count on my party members to avoid breaking CCs and be prepared to re-up their traps, polymorphs, roots, etc when necessary. I have less trouble with Rogues breaking CC than most AOE DPSers. When I take the time to mark pulls, I still find it hand for folks follow the target order. I PUG more or less everything and many times I find folks bored with, or unwilling to follow my strategy. Does this mean that Bear tanks are also obsolete?
Maybe I'll find it hard to find groups in the future, but for now, I think I'll keep a Rogue in my pocket. We relics from a bygone era need to stick together.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Luisx Dec 15th 2008 4:26PM
IM A ROGUE. I'M 8O. I RUN HEROICS EVERYDAY. My DPS is as good as anyone elses. My CC is as good as anyone elses (assuming that it isn't tampered with). Although I may not have the best AoE around, Fan of Knives and Blade Flurry keep me at the top of the meter. I am not complaining, but Hey...IF blizz buffs us anyways GG :)
Jamison Dec 15th 2008 4:26PM
In thinking about my comment above, I wonder if we'll start seeing more subtlety rogues in PvE now. I've never tried that tree, but this discussion got me thinking I should maybe give it a shot.
cranberryzero Dec 15th 2008 4:36PM
I love subtlety. I can use shadowstep to get behind any mob in the blink of an eye (with an extra 20% crit chance on that first hit) and dance of shadows is great for throwing in big blasts of damage from ambush and garotte etc.
armi0022 Dec 15th 2008 4:27PM
In my first heroic the other night (so somewhat undergeared), I was top DPS and knew how to play (not pulling aggro, etc). My sap was helpful and the group wanted me to keep going with them. You may have to work a bit more to get in and then build your reputation, but rogues will be fine if the player behind the keyboard isn't clueless.
Rosa Dec 15th 2008 4:29PM
I agree with the sentiment displayed on this page in spots, I'm so over this whole new "aoe everything" sentiment. And I'm a Paladin tank.
When I mark CC in a pull, it's because I know myself, I know my healer, and I know our limitations. Nothing annoys me more than some aoeing right over a cc, or, even worse, when I pull and the moon doesn't get sheeped because the mage thinks they know what I can handle better than I do.
I've seen a lot more wipes because of this new attitude. I like the things Blizz has done to make instances faster through design of the dungeon, but this whole idea that EVERY pull should be handled with flamestrike and hurricane can seriously bite me.
Ogre Dec 15th 2008 4:34PM
My biggest concern, other than them fixing HaT cause I hate speccing it for raids, is that yes, even us good rogues that can pull 2.5k+ dps in a heroic are being phased out. Why bring a strong rogue when you can bring an equally strong Blood DK?
They have the exact same interupt mechanic as we do, have more health, better armor, an AoE that if Glyphed is phenomenal for minimizing damage to the tank, a ranged taunt to stop loose mobs if need be, and a plethora of buffs/utility.
I refuse to roll a DK past starting zone, so I'm a sad panda.
cranberryzero Dec 15th 2008 4:36PM
Rogues have lost some of the dps limelight recently, but if as a rogue, you think your only job is to stand behind the main target and stab, you're going to only be barely useful.
Honestly, I don't even worry about where I stand on the DPS meter anymore on my rogue-- mages, locks, dks and hunters will always eek you out with AOE damage. But a good rogue has to be focused on the group as a whole.
Sapping: Obvious, but sapping is still a good method of cc when you need it.
Peeling: On my rogue, I see one of my jobs in a group as keeping the mobs away from the casters. As soon as you see a mob break off of the tank, stop what you're doing, pop preparation and cheap shot the hell out of that mob.
Off-tanking: I pride myself on being a good off-tank, especially against caster mobs. In Nax, I can solo most of the casters and healers so that they're not healing the main target or pelting the tank.
Oh and of course, picking lock boxes. :)
SleepySlug Dec 15th 2008 4:35PM
I've had no real problems with DPSing as my rogue, even with the "lack of aoe". I play a classic combat specced and still manage to keep up with and surpass most dps pug-ing heroics on my server.
Yea, we don't have the ease of just running in and casting a massive channeled aoe or having aoe dirt just pop up at our feet while we're dpsing, but we can still do enough aoe dmg and heavy single target damage to keep us at the top. Being able to just keep going and going on those longer boss fights makes us a huge help during raid progression when fights may be drawn out since maybe not everyone knows the fight. Plus being an aggro battery to make sure all those other crazy dps don't grab aggro on the stupidest pulls helps out as well and I'm loving Tricks of the Trade.
In my opinion, being able to jump into a fight with Tricks of the Trade and immediately pop my 2-min trink+Blade Flurry+Killing Spree (after my initial Garrote and S&D, of course) and then top it all off with a Fan of Knives and get NO aggro for it makes me a pretty happy rogue.
Deathgodryuk Dec 15th 2008 8:47PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one completely enthralled with rogue right now. Not only do I do massive dps as a combat rogue I've also got some awesome aggro utility
Randron Dec 15th 2008 4:35PM
I aoe tank just fine on my druid, no cc required here.
and i luv good rogues too, player not the class!
stabbington Dec 15th 2008 4:39PM
Why wouldn't you take a rogue? AOE comes in handy, and it helps to have one or two AOE classes in any run, but there's a lot of 2-3 pulls in WotLK instances/heroics. AOEing 2-3 mobs isn't really a DPS gain for most classes, and it's certainly nothing rogues can't keep up with.
Besides, single target burst, interrupts, and stuns are hugely valuable for several pulls in every single heroic.
CC is outdated, though. I haven't seen a pull where the tank was in danger without CC, and I'm a not-overly-geared healer (most of my gear is heroic blues and heroic/badge epics).
Dez Dec 15th 2008 4:40PM
Ohh, I feel I'm expected to make a input here. I've played as a Rogue for close to 4 years, and during that time I have played hardcore to the bone in terms of playtime, on top I only played as a Rogue char until recently (no alts).
Why bring a Rogue you ask? Purely from a experienced viewpoint I feel I can tell you this, not from a "uber skilled" viewpoint but from time spent as a PvE Rogue.
1# DPS. The thing is if a Rogue makes good use of his skills and rotations, while having a solid knowledge of what stats he wants and how much, he will be a DPS that beat most other (at least was up until Wrath). He hits fast, he crits hard, he isn't relying on mana, and doesn't need much HP to stay alive and thus neither a lot of healing.
2# Boss-fights. A rogue as mentioned excels best at single-target focus, where he has time to properly build his combo points and get the rotations going. Thus he will unleash a crapload of damage in a bossfight, where he also can pop all his potential cooldowns to do significant damage in a short period. (AR, BF, Ksphree and whatnot).
3# "Off-tank". A good Rogue (especialy with a solid dodge %) might be able to tank a mob for some time, with healing even better, and with evasion even better. If you for some reason happen to be Sub specced you could have a lot of fun, with Preparation and ghostly strike. A rogue could work as a off-tank, or he could help take care of things when there's just a bit too many mobs at once, he can also save your arse if your close to a wipe and the tank dies by tanking the boss.
4# Crowd Control. A Rogue has endless means to incapacitate, stun, or interrupt a mob. Especially excel at caster type mobs, where they can easily take a mob solo by constantly interrupting casts/stunning (CoS if needed). Things like Sap, Blind and Kick also make us useful.
5# Multiple targets. As far as AoE goes, we can't really expect to have much of that, every class excel at some things and Rogue just isn't a AoE type of class. If you give every class everything there's nada left to distinguish the classes. Rogues are very capable, giving us AoE would be silly (and mages would /Cry). However it seems people have forgot about a few things if they whine about AoE. Killing Sphree, Blade Flurry, Fan of Knives with no cooldown, add in sword spec and you got a solid AoE. Not really AoE but it helps, and that's more then a Rogue should have.
A Rogue is a guy wearing raggy clothes, wielding daggers and a close-range fighter, AoE has no place here. Don't ruin the lore, and for all that's holy don't ruin the ROGUE class.
redielin Dec 15th 2008 5:39PM
This reply comes from a rogue who has stopped playing rogue in favor of a tank and a healer.
1# DPS. The thing is if a Rogue makes good use of his skills and rotations, while having a solid knowledge of what stats he wants and how much, he will be a DPS that beat most other (at least was up until Wrath). He hits fast, he crits hard, he isn't relying on mana, and doesn't need much HP to stay alive and thus neither a lot of healing.
No longer true, especially if the group is aoe'ing. All the other classes, including hybrid dps, do comparable damage.
2# Boss-fights. A rogue as mentioned excels best at single-target focus, where he has time to properly build his combo points and get the rotations going. Thus he will unleash a crapload of damage in a bossfight, where he also can pop all his potential cooldowns to do significant damage in a short period. (AR, BF, Ksphree and whatnot).
Also no longer true. All those AOE classes are at parity in single target dps as well. This is the stated goal by blue. Besides, some classes are putting out so much burst that rogues barely have time to do more than 1 full rotation.
3# "Off-tank". A good Rogue (especialy with a solid dodge %) might be able to tank a mob for some time, with healing even better, and with evasion even better. If you for some reason happen to be Sub specced you could have a lot of fun, with Preparation and ghostly strike. A rogue could work as a off-tank, or he could help take care of things when there's just a bit too many mobs at once, he can also save your arse if your close to a wipe and the tank dies by tanking the boss.
No Bad. Get out of my group. If you even try to pull this, I will be a very upset tank or healer.
4# Crowd Control. A Rogue has endless means to incapacitate, stun, or interrupt a mob. Especially excel at caster type mobs, where they can easily take a mob solo by constantly interrupting casts/stunning (CoS if needed). Things like Sap, Blind and Kick also make us useful.
In combat CC for short durations is for pvp. In pve, it just ruins tank positioning and sucks up healer mana when the mob turns on you when the cc is over (or misses). There are no situations where I will ask a rogue to do this, and if the shit is coming down, it only makes my job (healer or tank) harder. In short, NO.
5# Multiple targets. As far as AoE goes, we can't really expect to have much of that, every class excel at some things and Rogue just isn't a AoE type of class. If you give every class everything there's nada left to distinguish the classes. Rogues are very capable, giving us AoE would be silly (and mages would /Cry). However it seems people have forgot about a few things if they whine about AoE. Killing Sphree, Blade Flurry, Fan of Knives with no cooldown, add in sword spec and you got a solid AoE. Not really AoE but it helps, and that's more then a Rogue should have.
Rogue AOE is subpar at best. I am certainly not looking for rogues if I'm looking for AOE.
Rogues are at the moment, ok if you don't have any other options, and sap isn't so bad. However they are *the number 1* squishiest melee dps, and they are so full of cockamamie ideas to help their group, which mostly just get the group in more trouble. Rogues need some sort of role that we can depend on in groups besides melee dps. Tricks of the trade aint it - when was the last time you invited a hunter because you needed misdirect?
Rogues are a pretty idea, and are okay in pvp if you have overpowered pve weapons. Otherwise, Blizz needs to delete this class and let them all roll an actually useful class in pve.
With dual specs incoming, this is the fate of all 'pure DPS' classes. Rogues are just the ones who are closest to the chopping block.
The day they let a class that wears plate or can rez/heal do acceptable melee dps was the day the rogue class was broken in pve. Period.
corvaal Dec 15th 2008 4:42PM
I've tried to pug several heroics and always get the response, sorry man, don't need a rogue.
So if it's not a guild run i'm not going.
SleepySlug Dec 15th 2008 4:47PM
That's sad that your server is so anti-rogue. Which is it? So I know never to visit.
Lish Dec 15th 2008 4:49PM
"He argued that Rogues are best suited with Druid tanks that do not handle multiple mobs as well as other tanking classes do."
Then he's been running with some bad druid tanks. I for one have had no problems tanking multiple mobs.
Naix Dec 15th 2008 4:49PM
I play a frost spec Death Knight and I simply bury Rogues on the DPS charts. Even when I was level 76 I still would inch out the level 80 Rogue on instances. I never thought I would say this....
Buff Rogues.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 4:56PM
(@40) I never thought I would say this...
That was a crappy Rogue. I can promise you that in almost any gear I will be able to outdps another class at the same level, purely by using my skills and timing effectively.
You can't really say rogues need a buff when the thing is, most rogues are bad players.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 4:50PM
Playing on a High-Pop server it's not that Rogues aren't needed, they're easily a good substitute for DPS, but they're so damn many Rogues that you're not a bit of significant. IF there's a party it will already have a Rogue, more or less XD
Oh and that Rogue in the pic is awe-SOME! Who is it? ^^
Roland Dec 15th 2008 4:50PM
Since when was trash the issue in Wrath? In my opinion, for any competent heroic group, the issue is not what numbers can you put up on trash - it's whether you can actually kill the freaking bosses. On boss fights, as mentioned before, a proper rotation should make you just as competitive as any other dps class, assuming comparable gear. And ultimately, isn't downing the guys who drop emblems the whole point?
I'm breaking 2k dps on boss fights, and I haven't had any problems getting in groups.