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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: A Rogue without a cause
by Amanda Dean 
Dec 15th 2008 at 4:00PM
Maximogu of Firetree posed the question "Why bring a Rogue to an 80 heroic?" in the general forums. He claimed that at this point there CC is unnecessary for most tanks that rely on AOE. Most of the trash pulls are handled by AOE classes now, making the Rogue's single target focus obsolete. He argued that Rogues are best suited with Druid tanks that do not handle multiple mobs as well as other tanking classes do.Here are some of the reasons given for bringing a rogue along:
Anushka of Kel'Thuzad: There's a lot of nasty things that can be interrupted in most heroics. Though I wouldn't take more than one rogue.
Khadros of Frostwolf: To listen to the sound of theirs daggers going schlick schlick schlick.
Morgrimm of Korgath: Because one of my friends is a rogue.
Owari of Frostwolf: To DPS, of course.
Mypetgoat of Bladefist: It's one expendible DPS that won't roll on my gear.
Madia of Maelstrom: They need loot and stuff too.All of these responses seem pretty trivial, but hint that in most cases Rogues are still welcome in a heroic group. This discussion brings a few questions to mind:
Have Rogues been rendered obsolete in contemporary PvE?
Should Rogues be given AOE abilities in order stay in the game?
Why am I leveling a Rogue, anyway?
I like this AOE business about as much as I like wearing heels in the mud. As a tanking Druid I'm still a fan of CC, which may make me seem like an over-cautious worry wart. Though it is not as spectacular as watching a Paladin burst down an entire pull, I find that CC helps reduce the number of corpse runs back to the instance. In the end I find this completes the instance faster. When I DPS with an AOE tank, I snarl and sneer just a little when I have to come out of cat to cover Pally who bit off more than the healer can chew.
There are some challenges to this method however. I have to count on my party members to avoid breaking CCs and be prepared to re-up their traps, polymorphs, roots, etc when necessary. I have less trouble with Rogues breaking CC than most AOE DPSers. When I take the time to mark pulls, I still find it hand for folks follow the target order. I PUG more or less everything and many times I find folks bored with, or unwilling to follow my strategy. Does this mean that Bear tanks are also obsolete?
Maybe I'll find it hard to find groups in the future, but for now, I think I'll keep a Rogue in my pocket. We relics from a bygone era need to stick together.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 7)
Tinwhisker Dec 15th 2008 4:52PM
I play a rogue, in heroics my single target DPS is just as good as anyone elses but with todays "AoE the entire room" method I just "do what I can" for trash and try to look busy. Taking Fan of Knives off cooldown will help but we're still limited by our master cooldown (energy) so it won't be much help there.
If you're a rogue and you find yourself raiding, remember to check to make sure you're getting all the right buffs. Missing a few buffs will hurt you; missing a select few will really, really hurt you.
MechChef Dec 15th 2008 4:54PM
This topic makes me a sad panda. Many of the points made are valid. With a lack of utility and a lack of DPS, what good are we? We're the loladins of patch 3.0 I fear.
True, our fuel-tanks don't run dry, and ToT is really nice. (you're welcome tanks) And lately, I've been seeing a lot of tanks taking the top DPS spot. Which in turn begs the question, if tanks are topping the meters, why bring DPS at all?
So, buff rogues! Also, drop blade-flurry to a 30 sec c/d.
QQlol Dec 15th 2008 4:54PM
I have an 80 Rogue, and I've not had too many problems finding groups. On the whole, every pull has become and AoE pull. Not once have I been asked, or needed to CC (nor has any other CC class in my party at the time). What i do find distressing is that almost every other class can out DPS me without even trying.
I can't heal, I can't tank, all I can do is DPS, so to see some offspec running around and out dps me without even trying, while wearing half the quality gear I have is borderline frustrating.
I'm not saying a revamp of the class is in order, but we are in need of some mild PvE damage buffage.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 4:59PM
Okey I want everyone who whines about buffs to read this.
Don't blame bad damage on the class, blame it on 90% of the bad rogue population.
Also, Rogues are so used to having no difficulties that once we seem even equal to other classes, we suddenly need buffs.
4 year hardcore PvE Rogue - Out.
Trevor Dec 15th 2008 5:05PM
Why Bring a Warrior to DPS? Why Bring a Shaman? Why Bring a DK? Bring them because you know them, they're your freinds, or your desperate. I'm getting sick of people complaining that they're not "Guaranteed" a spot in raids/heroics now. Oh, my god. I guess for once in your life, your actually going to have to do your job well to get into a heroic.
Lord Negatron Dec 15th 2008 5:04PM
/facepalm
Jasperwind Dec 15th 2008 5:18PM
"You can't really say rogues need a buff when the thing is, most rogues are bad players."
I just love your generalization.
Burrito Al Pastor Dec 15th 2008 6:09PM
Boo hoo hoo, rogues are no longer better than anybody else.
As a shadow priest, I can say to you: suck it up. DPS is DPS is DPS, and I have no sympathy for qqing about your class not being special anymore. Do the other DPS classes get fun stuff you don't? Maybe a little. But when was the last time your group leader turned down a hunter because he wanted a warlock?
Even shadowpriests don't occupy a magical utility pedistal anymore; ret paladins are a dime a dozen, and they mana battery exactly as well as we do. Not having a special place in the game isn't a nerf; it's the new norm.
Konchu Dec 15th 2008 6:40PM
I don't know that is the best attitude to have. I think all the classes should be viable in there own way. And all classes should have there nitch it has nothing to do with being special. A rogue can never be a healer they can never be a tank should blizzard add tanking and healing trees to rogues.
I play a hybrid class (druid)and I never was one of the QQing people bitching cause we were not as good as anyone else cause I could see our strength is in our versatility. I may not be able to interupt like a rogue in feral but I can pop and heal the tank or healer. A rogue should be able to out dps me a ret pally and a shamman or shadow priest in single target melee damage but a rogue can not off tank as good or heal or buff as good as these other classes.
Konchu Dec 15th 2008 7:00PM
That said I do like that they have made many builds viable. And its good that its not a pain for hybrids to raid or do dungeons. But I think the pure classes still need there edge and nitch.
Sandbenders Dec 15th 2008 5:20PM
Rogues do bring Expose Armor, which isn't a buff but at one point provided a pretty nice debuff if you weren't using a warrior tank. Is Expose Armor still useful at 80? I'm a bit out of date, I've been doing less stabbing and more healing lately.
SB
Erika Dec 15th 2008 5:21PM
We do need more damage and utility. Hell. The lore side of things is getting very blurry now. I mean a death knight rez? Come on. I am mutilate right now have been since I hit 70 back in Jan. I cannot beat a dk in worse gear. And find me a place where you cant aoe everything down. Maybe its my spec. Maybe I just suck as a rogue. But can remember when you had to actually cc stuff I could do some good. I could out dps any class on a boss fight.
Erika Kul Tiras-H 2.5 year rogue.
zappo Dec 15th 2008 5:24PM
Funny reading through all these things people want rogues to be very.. un-rogue like. Personally I'm very much into the take the player not the class mentality. So for the most part I'm happy to play with anyone who isn't an idiot and I can't say I really care about AOE or massive damage output (unless it's catastrophically bad which is sometimes the case).
I will say one thing though. All things considered, I'd much rather have a rogue than a death knight in the group. Rogues are basically single target, but they can dump agro and as long as you point them in the right direction (and they dps from behind) you just say "go kill that" and you're mostly alright.
Death Knights? Oh dear lord do they have to tools to f'up a group. Yanking mobs from out of no where, throwing down death and decay because it looks cool, having frost presence turned on mysteriously... on and on.
nlive Dec 15th 2008 5:29PM
Unless our single-target DPS or raid utility is significantly increased, any pragmatic read lead will take a number of classes over a rogue.
The fix? Either we need _real_ raid utility (ability to apply poisons on other players' weapons, off-tanking, aggro-generating poisons, and a real AoE misdirect), or we need a 3% DPS buff on sustained, single target DPS.
In other words, Blizz needs to break us as badly as they broke Ret pallies, and gradually nerf us back into a balanced state.
By looking at the PTR patch notes, it seems Blizz thinks we only require tweaks, when in reality, we need some pretty fundamental changes to become raid indispensable. As it is, we're barely raid viable.
Balius Dec 15th 2008 8:17PM
I think you're wrong about why rogue changes have been small, innocuous things since patch 3.0. It's not that Blizzard considers rogues working as intended, it's that they are treating the class with apprehension and trepidation. Rogues are a very number-heavy class when it comes to talents and skills, so balancing them takes a lot of math and theorycrafting that other classes don't have. Blizzard developers have said that they have significant difficulty dealing with rogue rebalancing because of that, and because rogues don't tend to stick closely with a single tree's dps focus like other classes do(all rogues use stealth so stealth talents are good for all rogues, all rogues autoattack so combat talents are good for all rogues, all rogues use poison so poison boosting talents apply to all rogues; a fire mage only really uses fire, so skills that boost ice don't really appeal).
I think, when we see rogues get looked at, it will be all at once...and will probably signal that Blizzard is done with revisions to all the other classes for a while. Blizzard's going to wait, because they won't want to fix rogues twice.
Herb Dec 15th 2008 5:27PM
Although there is a lot of AOE pulling rogues are still very solid dps when played right. I'd take a well played rogue over some average aoe'er any day.
when it comes down to 2 well played classes, id prolly take whatever came along first that I needed. I have no preference rogue vs x dps class.
Zookilla Dec 15th 2008 5:39PM
I think my utility in a group is underrated.
1. Mind Numbing Poison for anti-caster utility, and Wounding poison for healy type mobs.
2. On Demand stuns to reduce damage the tank takes during a hard pull.
3. Caster mob lockdown with kick, stuns, and MNP
4. Tricks of the trade helps boost the tanks threat and dps, I can also use it with fan of knives to boost the tanks aoe threat.
5. Endless DPS, since I don't rely on mana I can sustain dps for long periods of time.
6. Sap for initial CC, and Blind for clutch cc.
7. Evasion offtank mobs, or evasion main tank if the tank dies... I am often second on threat and can hold the bosses attention for the last couple percent (if necessary)
8. As an engineer I am additional wipe protection (vanish / cable rez)
9. Disarming traps, aka shattered halls and blackwing lair (i'm sure there will be more)
10. Easy to control threat allows me to do very high dps without worrying about pulling aggro. by using feint, vanish, and tricks of the trade, I should never pull aggro unlike some other classes who have costly aggro wipes, or none at all.
11. Disarm helps vs heavy melee trash (usually only works in 5 mans though)
12. Lockpicking helps with certain doors (in shattered halls if you have a rogue you can avoid going in the sewer, and in Arcatraz you don't even need a key if you have a max LP rogue), random lockbox drops, and stationary locked boxes.
ash Dec 15th 2008 5:44PM
A good rogue is hands down one of the best classes you can have in your group. Even as a pally I can say this because one of our weaknesses is casters and nothing destroys (or controls) a caster like a good rogue. Plus, clearing trash is one thing, but when you get down to it, downing the bosses is what you need to progress in an instance, and rogues shine there.
...oh, and they dont roll on my loot (no plate or two handers:)
Konchu Dec 15th 2008 5:45PM
So even with AOE why do rogues need it to be viable. Even though they do in the combat tree and was a favorite of my old rogue. Just cause your tank is aoeing this doesn't mean everyone has to. I still feel focused damage on single targets is still a bit more mana/health efficient as consentrating damage on one target burns it down quick lowering damage taken by the tank and healing by the healer.
So while I am aoeing a couple of mobs to keep good solid agro we just burn so mobs down one at a time like normal I am just crowd controlling with my body (burning those cool down like barkskin and my dodge trinkets)I am still not above some regular CC though and I think its smart to do so I think it makes it smoother and faster.
But really when it comes to a lot of bossfights you really can't beat having a rogue as they are single targets many times. And like was in the article a good kick to a caster can save a lot of greif for the team.
Konchu Dec 15th 2008 5:46PM
So even without even. mistype.