The ethics of a botched deal, redux
"The ethics of a botched deal" turned out to be a much more popular article than I'd been expecting. I didn't really think the subject matter was going to result in that much commentary, but, having read all of the comments, I think I see why. Everyone's been on at least one end of a bad deal, and stuff like that is a lot more common in the early days of an expansion with new recipes, dungeons, and raids everywhere you look, with the attendant opportunities for costly mistakes.A few people quite fairly said it would be tough to make a call on the incident given the limited account I'd written in the original article. Others pointed out that you could probably draw an ethical distinction between the Blacksmith's decision to: a). accept a tip, and b). keep the gold gained from vendoring the 2H mace (and I think this is accurate, although it does raise another question. More on this in a bit). Commenters also observed that, the ethics of the Blacksmith's actions aside, you wouldn't necessarily want to be a repeat customer of his for reasons that hadn't been articulated in the original piece.
So behind the cut is a more inclusive look at the issue, a little more background on what happened, and how other players responded to it ingame.
I found the incident to be an interesting moral issue primarily because it wasn't as cut and dried as either of the following:
Scenario A: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Both parties apologize for the mistake, and the Blacksmith offers to forego a tip. Customer insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then questions guild chat wondering what the proper course of action was.Scenario B: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Blacksmith notices that the piece is BoP but needs the skill-up. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran and receives a tip from Customer. Blacksmith makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and "discovers" that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake and departs. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
You don't exactly need to reach for a copy of Ethics 101 to see that the Blacksmith is a fairly innocent party in A, but is kind of a rat bastard in B. Neither conclusion would have been tough to reach if either of these scenarios had actually been true, and neither (in my opinion) would have been worth writing about for the same reason. But neither scenario actually occurred. According to what the Blacksmith wrote in guild chat directly after the incident occurred , this is --
The real story: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake, and insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
Now, there are several issues here that people raised that all play a role in why I think it's a worthwhile problem for discussion:
38 gold isn't a lot of money in Wrath's economy.
No, it's not. But 38g that isn't yours is still 38g that isn't yours.
The Customer was a noob. The mace was the Blacksmith's and he could do whatever he wanted with it.
The 2H mace was Blacksmith's only by virtue of being BoP. All of the materials for it were the Customer's, and the mace had been intended to be the Customer's, which no one disputes. The game mechanic that prevents the mace from being transferred to the Customer is not ethically relevant here; Customer still technically owns the mace, and thus (I would argue) the proceeds from it.
18g is not going to make up for the cost of materials, so who cares?
Well, I do, for one. So do most people, judging from the comments on the original piece.
I think you're mostly pissed off because Blacksmith had the bad taste to giggle over the incident.It certainly doesn't help, mostly because it doesn't do much to suggest that the Blacksmith was acting in good faith.
The Blacksmith deserved the tip because Customer gave it to him after they realized the mistake.
Morally I think Blacksmith is in the clear on the 25g tip for this reason. It was given in compensation for his time.
25g is a pretty hefty tip for what essentially boils down to 5 minutes and a hearthstone. It was obviously intended to compensate the Blacksmith for a 2H mace that he (in addition to the Customer) didn't notice was BoP.
Also true -- and a hefty portion of why I wouldn't have taken the tip if I'd been the Blacksmith. I think this is actually the most interesting portion of the debate because it boils down to two competing, but equally correct, directives:
- The Customer isn't wrong to offer a tip for the Blacksmith's time, because the Customer made a mistake.
- The Blacksmith isn't wrong (or, as it happened, wouldn't have been wrong) to refuse the tip, because the Blacksmith made the same mistake.
But which is it, idiot? Should the Blacksmith have taken the tip or not?
Mmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess the answer to that one depends on what kind of person you consider yourself -- and whether you accept the notion of something called opportunity cost, which (in this example) boils down to the following question:
Is making a quick 38g over a morally gray business deal today worth the potential cost to you in future business you won't receive -- or whatever else said business deal will cost you?
The Wow Economist ran an article on whether to sell or use Titansteel as a kind of a quick and dirty guide to the concept of opportunity cost, but in a nutshell, it's all about what won't happen to you as a result of the decisions you make today. If you want to run with the example that we're already arguing about, Blacksmith's immediate profit is 38g. By contrast, his opportunity cost is the hundreds of gold he would have made in repeat business from Customer and/or Customer's guildies.
What you see now is the 38g. What you don't see is the comment in a random PuG's party chat three months down the line when someone asks about where to get a Blacksmithing piece made, and Customer says, "Well, don't go to (X)."
And, leaving aside all question of ethics, with whom would you rather do business? A blacksmith who kept the tip and the 18g from vendoring the mace? Or a blacksmith who'd apologized, refused the tip, and mailed you the 18g?
And would you want the former person carrying your guild tag?
Blacksmith was a trial member of my guild, and got a negative reaction from guildmates when he related the incident in guild chat. He did not give the name of the player for whom he had made the Saronite Mindcrusher when a guildie asked about it, saying he couldn't remember. People in the guild were pretty disturbed by Blacksmith's flippant attitude and his refusal to accept any responsibility for his part in the mistake. But the clincher was probably the rude response he gave to the member who had asked for Customer's name. An officer online at the time took notice, said, "Congratulations, that's the most expensive 38g you'll ever make," and /gkicked.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Economy, Blacksmithing, Items, Making money, Odds and ends






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Marluxia.Kyoshu Dec 15th 2008 8:41PM
doot doot doot
Slanik Dec 15th 2008 9:41PM
I'm pretty sure the Blacksmith could have opened a Ticket to a GM and have the mats reimbursed to the customer.
Dan Dec 15th 2008 11:13PM
Yeah, if somebody runs off with your enchanting mats you can definitely get those back via ticket...
Jen Dec 16th 2008 11:18AM
GREAT story and I'm especially pleased to see it had the happy ending it deserved.
I actually tend to play WoW much as I play life - with a pretty strict sense of fairplay. In your example I would have not only refused the tip, I'd have pointed out that as the crafter I had the responsibility to know it was BoP. I also would have compensated the buyer for the wasted mats using the AH averages for the mats listed on Allakhazam. This lesson here was more the crafter's lesson to learn than his client's.
Thing is, in the real world there are people who are in it for themselves and couldn't care less who they stomp on in the process, and in WoW it's the same thing. I'm always curious as to whether people behave in ways they wouldn't dare in real life, or if in-game behavior is consistent with real life behavior. In real life do you suppose people who overhear a conversation in a public place ever butt in with a "STFU and go talk in private!" Do you think they run around naked in parks and kiss or pinch the butts of random strangers? (There's a butt pinching frenzy happening in Dalaran these days, and my priest never escapes unmolested.) Maybe in real life the smug crafter is like Hank Hill's car salesman, laughing that his customer paid sticker price and not ever thinking maybe this isn't a good way to reward a customer's loyalty. (I really am curious how the scenario would have changed had the customer in question had a fit over it as opposed to generously accepting complete responsibility.)
In regards to the ethically challenged, WoW has plenty. You have your day ruiner camping gankers who focus exclusively on disrupting lowbie quests. You have your PUG raid members who participate til they get an item they want and immediately log out or hearth. You have your honor farmers in AV who either guard the cave or participate just long enough to die and then never leave the graveyard.
That said, for every a-hole in WoW there are many more generous, nice players. Like the mage who offered my priest water in Grizzly yesterday, or the warlock who gave my priest spellpower potions after I threw a heal at her when she aggro'd too much in Dragon's Blight, or the warlock on my new server who gave my lowbie hunter a healthstone. Not to mention the warriors and rogues and death knights passing by who saw my priest in water a little too hot and took the time to stop and quickly help clear stuff off of her. This goodwill can even extend across factions - for every player who ganked my leveling priest, another enemy player helped her. (Well, it might not quite be a one for one thing, but there have been plenty.)
In my experience, more often than not people randomly extend themselves in gestures of goodwill wanting NOTHING in return and completely cancel out the occasional jerk we've all come across in the game. I think releasing the blacksmith from the guild was a good call, because it put social pressure on the player to think about how his actions impact others and how that translates into his trustworthiness when he wants to be a part of a team. Maybe he learned you get out of it what you put into it? Or maybe he found a group of like-minded people who sneered at the goody-two shoes and welcomed him with open arms? Who knows.
Doctor Fatty Dec 15th 2008 8:42PM
Video game money. Problem solved.
Heenk Dec 15th 2008 10:09PM
A thousand times this.
axelsoar Dec 15th 2008 11:41PM
video game money/ "real" money
Same damn thing, that slip of paper is worth nothing without the context of society telling us it's worth something. Same with the video game money, it's worth what people say it is, and if the blacksmith, and the customer, and all else involved thought it held value, then it held value in the exact same way some piece of paper holds value to you
Megalomaniac Dec 15th 2008 11:56PM
Treating people well > "videogame money lolz"
Athinah Dec 16th 2008 5:14PM
Its not about the money or the Mace or whatever. its the fact that this guy is a total jerk wad and probably isn't better in real life. underline its the princeple of the matter not the money
Azir Dec 16th 2008 1:20AM
Slow news day huh? Welp I guess I'd say that there is something to be said for the utilitarian cost for what this guy did to his customer. It is video game money, which by any normal person's standard has incredibly low value (not to mention that it doesn't actually belong to you). And the amount of the already useless video game money that was 'stolen' is so incredibly small that there can't possibly any value to discussing the morality of it. It's like discussing the morality of a fly landing on the back of an elephant and taking a dump on it. Sure, it would discomfort the elephant if any creature took a dump on it. But if the little bit of poop on the elephant doesn't really matter to the elephant then what does it matter if it was morally right of the fly ? Should the fly have to make amends to the elephant?
I'm using allegory but I think you catch my drift. Delete this post and move on imho.
Shifthappenz Dec 15th 2008 8:45PM
good for you guys. that guy sounds like a total jerk and deserved to be gkicked
Robert M Dec 15th 2008 11:16PM
/agree,
My guild means honor guard in latin and it is something we take very seriously. We, as a group, have little tolerance for things like that and feel that each of us represents the other. It's the primary reason I paid REAL money to transfer servers to play with my guild. I'm glad that we aren't the only ones who feel that doing the "right" thing is important.
skynes Dec 15th 2008 8:46PM
He would have got GKicked form my Guild also.
Rightly so too. Gloating over another's misfortune isn't right. It shows the guy to be an inconsiderate jerk, which we don't have room for.
Turlagh Dec 15th 2008 8:47PM
My main is an engineer, and I bought the mats to make two of the lvl 73 guns not realizing that it was BoP. I am the one one who should know their craft not the customer. The Blacksmith made the mistake, it was HIS obligation to know HIS patterns. He should not have taken a copper, and should have compensated the customer.
Rock Dec 16th 2008 12:04AM
An interesting way of looking at this is to say that the Blacksmith broke the verbal agreement ( it's a stretch).
It could be argued that the Blacksmith went into a verbal agreement with the buyer that he would provide said mace. In a way he is advertising that he can make this mace for the customer.
By not being able to provide the mace he is not holding up his end of the bargain and is therefor in the wrong.
Cy Dec 16th 2008 1:33AM
Fully agree with Rock. That's the bottom line of this: There was an agreement made. The customer should have gotten something in return, the very least of which should have been the 18g from the vendor.
Then again, maybe the customer just didn't care enough about the gold to even think about it. (I know I wouldn't.)
Treason of Farstriders Dec 27th 2008 12:35AM
Bullshit.
No reason at all he should have ever LOOKED at the patterns if he himself didn't use it.
If the guy knew it was BOP, that was clearly dishonest.
If he didnt' who the hell cares. I think it both wasted the blacksmiths time and the customers mats, and it doesn't matter morally who tips whom there.
Turkeyz Dec 15th 2008 8:48PM
All in all, video game drama is srs business
But if i must, ill say that both are in the wrong.
The customer is in the wrong for not doing his homework and being nieve, and the blacksmith is in the wrong for acting crooked by taking a tip after getting mats from the guy and getting a possible skill up.
neuro Dec 15th 2008 10:41PM
how are they 'both' wrong?
the buyer might have been wrong and/or naive in the first place, but he made the effort to correct HIS mistake by offering to tip the blacksmither for taking the time to hearth, etc, whereas the blacksmither didnt do his research on his stuff and just TOOK the money and gloated over it.
MisterMoose Dec 15th 2008 10:47PM
The customer made a mistake, in that sense he is wrong. However, what he did was not morally wrong, unlike what the BS did.