The ethics of a botched deal, redux
"The ethics of a botched deal" turned out to be a much more popular article than I'd been expecting. I didn't really think the subject matter was going to result in that much commentary, but, having read all of the comments, I think I see why. Everyone's been on at least one end of a bad deal, and stuff like that is a lot more common in the early days of an expansion with new recipes, dungeons, and raids everywhere you look, with the attendant opportunities for costly mistakes.A few people quite fairly said it would be tough to make a call on the incident given the limited account I'd written in the original article. Others pointed out that you could probably draw an ethical distinction between the Blacksmith's decision to: a). accept a tip, and b). keep the gold gained from vendoring the 2H mace (and I think this is accurate, although it does raise another question. More on this in a bit). Commenters also observed that, the ethics of the Blacksmith's actions aside, you wouldn't necessarily want to be a repeat customer of his for reasons that hadn't been articulated in the original piece.
So behind the cut is a more inclusive look at the issue, a little more background on what happened, and how other players responded to it ingame.
I found the incident to be an interesting moral issue primarily because it wasn't as cut and dried as either of the following:
Scenario A: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Both parties apologize for the mistake, and the Blacksmith offers to forego a tip. Customer insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then questions guild chat wondering what the proper course of action was.Scenario B: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Blacksmith notices that the piece is BoP but needs the skill-up. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran and receives a tip from Customer. Blacksmith makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and "discovers" that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake and departs. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
You don't exactly need to reach for a copy of Ethics 101 to see that the Blacksmith is a fairly innocent party in A, but is kind of a rat bastard in B. Neither conclusion would have been tough to reach if either of these scenarios had actually been true, and neither (in my opinion) would have been worth writing about for the same reason. But neither scenario actually occurred. According to what the Blacksmith wrote in guild chat directly after the incident occurred , this is --
The real story: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake, and insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
Now, there are several issues here that people raised that all play a role in why I think it's a worthwhile problem for discussion:
38 gold isn't a lot of money in Wrath's economy.
No, it's not. But 38g that isn't yours is still 38g that isn't yours.
The Customer was a noob. The mace was the Blacksmith's and he could do whatever he wanted with it.
The 2H mace was Blacksmith's only by virtue of being BoP. All of the materials for it were the Customer's, and the mace had been intended to be the Customer's, which no one disputes. The game mechanic that prevents the mace from being transferred to the Customer is not ethically relevant here; Customer still technically owns the mace, and thus (I would argue) the proceeds from it.
18g is not going to make up for the cost of materials, so who cares?
Well, I do, for one. So do most people, judging from the comments on the original piece.
I think you're mostly pissed off because Blacksmith had the bad taste to giggle over the incident.It certainly doesn't help, mostly because it doesn't do much to suggest that the Blacksmith was acting in good faith.
The Blacksmith deserved the tip because Customer gave it to him after they realized the mistake.
Morally I think Blacksmith is in the clear on the 25g tip for this reason. It was given in compensation for his time.
25g is a pretty hefty tip for what essentially boils down to 5 minutes and a hearthstone. It was obviously intended to compensate the Blacksmith for a 2H mace that he (in addition to the Customer) didn't notice was BoP.
Also true -- and a hefty portion of why I wouldn't have taken the tip if I'd been the Blacksmith. I think this is actually the most interesting portion of the debate because it boils down to two competing, but equally correct, directives:
- The Customer isn't wrong to offer a tip for the Blacksmith's time, because the Customer made a mistake.
- The Blacksmith isn't wrong (or, as it happened, wouldn't have been wrong) to refuse the tip, because the Blacksmith made the same mistake.
But which is it, idiot? Should the Blacksmith have taken the tip or not?
Mmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess the answer to that one depends on what kind of person you consider yourself -- and whether you accept the notion of something called opportunity cost, which (in this example) boils down to the following question:
Is making a quick 38g over a morally gray business deal today worth the potential cost to you in future business you won't receive -- or whatever else said business deal will cost you?
The Wow Economist ran an article on whether to sell or use Titansteel as a kind of a quick and dirty guide to the concept of opportunity cost, but in a nutshell, it's all about what won't happen to you as a result of the decisions you make today. If you want to run with the example that we're already arguing about, Blacksmith's immediate profit is 38g. By contrast, his opportunity cost is the hundreds of gold he would have made in repeat business from Customer and/or Customer's guildies.
What you see now is the 38g. What you don't see is the comment in a random PuG's party chat three months down the line when someone asks about where to get a Blacksmithing piece made, and Customer says, "Well, don't go to (X)."
And, leaving aside all question of ethics, with whom would you rather do business? A blacksmith who kept the tip and the 18g from vendoring the mace? Or a blacksmith who'd apologized, refused the tip, and mailed you the 18g?
And would you want the former person carrying your guild tag?
Blacksmith was a trial member of my guild, and got a negative reaction from guildmates when he related the incident in guild chat. He did not give the name of the player for whom he had made the Saronite Mindcrusher when a guildie asked about it, saying he couldn't remember. People in the guild were pretty disturbed by Blacksmith's flippant attitude and his refusal to accept any responsibility for his part in the mistake. But the clincher was probably the rude response he gave to the member who had asked for Customer's name. An officer online at the time took notice, said, "Congratulations, that's the most expensive 38g you'll ever make," and /gkicked.
Filed under: Blacksmithing, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Economy, Making money
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 3 of 8)
Clevins Dec 16th 2008 4:05AM
kenny,
I didn't want you to level BS so I wouldn't have to. I know that some people will have leveled it *for their own reasons* and can *also* craft me things. I didn't make you level it. YOU could have chosen other professions.
You made your choice. You deal with the consequences in terms of cost. Don't whine at others about it.
Amaxe Dec 16th 2008 8:43AM
Well said Clevins.
JC (for example) is a pretty expensive profession, both from the investment in Northrend (dropped over100g learning the recipes opening day) and from the fact I am sharding ore instead of selling it on the AH. These things can't be helped. I don't like the JC token system in place in Dalaran, but don't see it as a dealbreaker to change professions.
However this is my choice to remain a JC. I didn't get into JC to profit (though I won't turn it down), but to make sure I could cut gems for myself.
Every profession has their own benefits and costs. If it isn't worth it then switch. Yes, we'll all be seeing people doing LF Blacksmith, LF Chanter because they need things they can't do themselves. Nobody forced someone to level so they did not have to themselves
Kenney Dec 16th 2008 11:55AM
Clevins: all I am doing is posting my opinion on a discussion of this subject. I must have hit a nerve for you to get so insulting and confrontational. Stop being a baby and expecting people to give you things for free.
I must really have failed to communicate something here, because I keep getting attacked about whining about how much blacksmithing cost, and that has never been my intent. Of course I knew what I was getting into when I did it- and I ALSO have a ton of alts that have done different professions. In all honesty- I think this is a straw man that you are attacking because it is easier than dealing with the fact that you think you should have a free lunch.
Just do me a favor, and next time you ask for something crafted, tell the crafter in advance that you don't think you should tip because they were just going to be an enchanter/leatherworker/blacksmith/jewelcrafter/whatever anyway. Maybe they'll feel like handing out charity, but don't whine if they disagree with your assessment of the value of their craft and aren't willing to give you a handout.
Siaperas Dec 15th 2008 9:07PM
I think this touches on another interesting question about whether or not you should be held to the same standards in an MMO as you are in real life, or (the often commented) how many people behave differtnly with people online compared to in real life.
Personally, I prefer to try to play like I prefer to try to live, by holding myself to the same standards. It's just a matter of curiosity how many people online do the same, or how many behave completely different online than they do in real life.
kyle Dec 15th 2008 10:01PM
I'm actually way more of a jerk in real life. What I noticed in mmo's is that it's much easier to gkick you in game than in real life.
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 9:10PM
Warcraft is a video game :).
The 'money' in this video game is make believe, and while it does take some in game effort to obtain this money, it has no bearing in the real world :)
warcraft is a video game :)
Castillo Dec 15th 2008 9:15PM
Warcraft is a video game that people pay REAL money and spend REAL time to enjoy. How hard is it to understand that the hours I put into the game, grinding, questing, running dungeons is equating into gold and/or items?
Warcraft is also a hobby. A pleasurable but time-consuming hobby. And that time is real money to me. Anyone who rips me off in-game is taking real dollars from me.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 9:29PM
You're really stupid aren't ya? :) Sorry to say, while I don't like to call ppl stupid and such, if you really are plain stupid without doubt, I let you know because someone needs to open your eyes, and you need to change your attitude if you want nicer responses in the future.
What does the fact that this happened in WoW has to do with any, any, any, anything? It's so irrelevant I in fact just want to make pretend I'm a donkey. It's about Morals, Ethics, Respect, Manners, Principles, Decency. Big words for you there aye? I know :) If you downright couldn't care less about Real People in WoW, you sure as hell ain't any better in real life, because a good person in real life wouldn't do what this blacksmith did.
People also invest their time, nerves, patience and effort in this game, more or less, how dare you even imply that the fact that WoW is a virtual game makes it more okay to treat people lowly? It's just the same principle.
Thrashnak Dec 15th 2008 9:54PM
Currency is still currency, no matter where that currency lies. And virtual property is still property.
It still holds a value within the video game. And we're on a forum discussing the video game and interactions held therein.
Most importantly, the main point is ethics are still ethics, no matter where the interaction occurs.
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 10:02PM
"Warcraft is a video game that people pay REAL money and spend REAL time to enjoy. How hard is it to understand that the hours I put into the game, grinding, questing, running dungeons is equating into gold and/or items?"
If you will read my 3 line post again mayb you will see this bit:
'while it does take some in game effort to obtain this money'
Shh, shhh, it's okay buddy, I can see from your post you spend a fair bit of time working hard for your gold.
"Warcraft is also a hobby. A pleasurable but time-consuming hobby. And that time is real money to me."
You see this is where you have lost me. What are you telling me every minute not working is time lost to you? Nice outlook on life there pal.
"Anyone who rips me off in-game is taking real dollars from me."
No they are not. They are taking your virtual money. It's make believe. Although i guess as you stated before 'anything you do that isn't making you money is losing you money'. Do you take shits on the move? That could be a few dollars down the drain is you sat down to do them. How bout sleep? If you sleep oh my, that is a good few hundred gone you lazy non working bum.
WoW is a VIDEO GAME.
kyle Dec 15th 2008 10:02PM
Don't make me come over and stomp on your model airplanes and say "it's not a real plane"
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 10:06PM
I like your post, it makes more sense than the other responses, but I still have some replies
"Currency is still currency, no matter where that currency lies. And virtual property is still property."
I don't agree within a video game.
"It still holds a value within the video game."
I agreed with this, geez did people only read the first line of my post? It wasn't that big...
"And we're on a forum discussing the video game and interactions held therein."
Yes we are, but when massive articles are posted talking about ethics, morals, and RL comparisons, I start to think, "yeah this isn't to much to do with WoW news" - don't take this as a you suck WI, i love you guys and I agree no1 has to read all the articles.
"Most importantly, the main point is ethics are still ethics, no matter where the interaction occurs."
Yes, and it is a bit of a dog move. But no, you over simplified. Ethics are ethics yes, but they have a vastly smaller impact on a video game. Please don't make this direct comparison with WoW and RL.
Arkhill Dec 15th 2008 10:43PM
Apparently, you know nothing of basic economics.
" 'Warcraft is also a hobby. A pleasurable but time-consuming hobby. And that time is real money to me.' "
You see this is where you have lost me. What are you telling me every minute not working is time lost to you? Nice outlook on life there pal."
Actually, yes. Every minute spent doing one thing is a minute lost to everything else. It's called opportunity cost, and it's mentioned in the actual article.
"The cost of pursuing one course of action measured in terms of the foregone return that could have been earned on an alternative course of action."
If I spend one hour playing WoW, that is one hour lost to working/making money.
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 10:59PM
Don't make me come over and stomp on your model airplanes and say "it's not a real plane".
It's not a real plane...But then again, if i did like plane models (I don't), I wouldn't say it's a real plane, but people here are saying how you are in WoW is how you are IRL.
This simply isn't true.
WoW still is a video game guys, sorry that your plane theory didn't break that.
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 11:07PM
"Apparently, you know nothing of basic economics."
I do.
"Actually, yes. Every minute spent doing one thing is a minute lost to everything else. It's called opportunity cost, and it's mentioned in the actual article."
To put it bluntly, welll DERRRRR. The point I made about this is that you can say that about everything. What you have said is just plain irrelevant. 'I am sleeping when I could be becoming president, I am losing life QQ'.
If you seriously take this approach on life, for one I gotta say I feel sorry for you, and secondly why the hell are you wasting your time with WoW? You see every minute lost (especially ones take from your precious video game time) as a missed oppertunity, get the hell off WoW and get on Everest, or back to work or something.
"The cost of pursuing one course of action measured in terms of the foregone return that could have been earned on an alternative course of action."
If I spend one hour playing WoW, that is one hour lost to working/making money."
Then do not play WoW. If you seriously see the world like this, you wouldn't have played WoW at any point in life, let alone play long enough to get so emotionally invested that you get so cut when someone steals ur pretend money.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Dec 15th 2008 11:29PM
For cryin' out loud, don't feed the ugly troll!
Sarg Bjornson Dec 16th 2008 3:56AM
Nobody cares about the money. We care about being an asshole. Being an asshole is something that isn't dependent on location.
Butnick Dec 15th 2008 9:16PM
Okay, the dude offered a tip AFTER her wasted the mats. He obviously didn't care about the money. Anytime a guildie needs something and I have it to spare I give to them and expect nothing in return, I won't even take a tip. He probably didn't care about the money and was just being nice for wasting the BS time. I really don't think it was anyones business whether the BS took the tip or not until they started gloating about it, then he just looked like an ass and deserved the /gkick. Now personally I would have declined the tip, apologized for not paying attention and asked him to wait while I vendored the mace and gave him the 18g in return. At that point if he said don't worry about it I would have asked him if he was sure and if he insisted would have kept the 18g as a tip.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 9:31PM
You're really stupid aren't ya? :) Sorry to say, while I don't like to call ppl stupid and such, if you really are plain stupid without doubt, I let you know because someone needs to open your eyes, and you need to change your attitude if you want nicer responses in the future.
What does the fact that this happened in WoW has to do with any, any, any, anything? It's so irrelevant I in fact just want to make pretend I'm a donkey. It's about Morals, Ethics, Respect, Manners, Principles, Decency. Big words for you there aye? I know :) If you downright couldn't care less about Real People in WoW, you sure as hell ain't any better in real life, because a good person in real life wouldn't do what this blacksmith did.
People also invest their time, nerves, patience and effort in this game, more or less, how dare you even imply that the fact that WoW is a virtual game makes it more okay to treat people lowly? It's just the same principle.
Shast Dec 15th 2008 9:29PM
Awesome. I applaud. I take interest in the individual that asked for the customer's name. I immediately locked on to that. This whole time I've been thinking about strangers that this has happened to and how I've responded to them. I've sold shards to give them the money and saying "be careful next time", I've added them to my friends list and farmed alongside them turning over what looted items I could.
I know how people in the game are such jerks. Sure it's just game money. But the time that one puts into game items they deem worthwhile shouldn't be exploited. That's what I respond to. That's my character in life and in warcraft. Customer's character and Blacksmith's character are also apparent so with that holding true, it IS a worthwhile discussion because this isn't about the game but the nature of the people involved and the fairness of it all.
Nicely done.
This seems to be a theme for my week. The exact same concept in game has been happening all around me in the real lives of others. Wal-Mart horror stories, unfortunate accidents, and all other kinds of cheap deals centering around the misfortune of others.
People don't realize how the negativity from people in game actually impact the way a person plays and responds to others within it.
I like this article and the previous one.
/cheer Ally ... that should be an achievement.