The ethics of a botched deal, redux
"The ethics of a botched deal" turned out to be a much more popular article than I'd been expecting. I didn't really think the subject matter was going to result in that much commentary, but, having read all of the comments, I think I see why. Everyone's been on at least one end of a bad deal, and stuff like that is a lot more common in the early days of an expansion with new recipes, dungeons, and raids everywhere you look, with the attendant opportunities for costly mistakes.A few people quite fairly said it would be tough to make a call on the incident given the limited account I'd written in the original article. Others pointed out that you could probably draw an ethical distinction between the Blacksmith's decision to: a). accept a tip, and b). keep the gold gained from vendoring the 2H mace (and I think this is accurate, although it does raise another question. More on this in a bit). Commenters also observed that, the ethics of the Blacksmith's actions aside, you wouldn't necessarily want to be a repeat customer of his for reasons that hadn't been articulated in the original piece.
So behind the cut is a more inclusive look at the issue, a little more background on what happened, and how other players responded to it ingame.
I found the incident to be an interesting moral issue primarily because it wasn't as cut and dried as either of the following:
Scenario A: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Both parties apologize for the mistake, and the Blacksmith offers to forego a tip. Customer insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then questions guild chat wondering what the proper course of action was.Scenario B: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Blacksmith notices that the piece is BoP but needs the skill-up. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran and receives a tip from Customer. Blacksmith makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and "discovers" that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake and departs. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
You don't exactly need to reach for a copy of Ethics 101 to see that the Blacksmith is a fairly innocent party in A, but is kind of a rat bastard in B. Neither conclusion would have been tough to reach if either of these scenarios had actually been true, and neither (in my opinion) would have been worth writing about for the same reason. But neither scenario actually occurred. According to what the Blacksmith wrote in guild chat directly after the incident occurred , this is --
The real story: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake, and insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
Now, there are several issues here that people raised that all play a role in why I think it's a worthwhile problem for discussion:
38 gold isn't a lot of money in Wrath's economy.
No, it's not. But 38g that isn't yours is still 38g that isn't yours.
The Customer was a noob. The mace was the Blacksmith's and he could do whatever he wanted with it.
The 2H mace was Blacksmith's only by virtue of being BoP. All of the materials for it were the Customer's, and the mace had been intended to be the Customer's, which no one disputes. The game mechanic that prevents the mace from being transferred to the Customer is not ethically relevant here; Customer still technically owns the mace, and thus (I would argue) the proceeds from it.
18g is not going to make up for the cost of materials, so who cares?
Well, I do, for one. So do most people, judging from the comments on the original piece.
I think you're mostly pissed off because Blacksmith had the bad taste to giggle over the incident.It certainly doesn't help, mostly because it doesn't do much to suggest that the Blacksmith was acting in good faith.
The Blacksmith deserved the tip because Customer gave it to him after they realized the mistake.
Morally I think Blacksmith is in the clear on the 25g tip for this reason. It was given in compensation for his time.
25g is a pretty hefty tip for what essentially boils down to 5 minutes and a hearthstone. It was obviously intended to compensate the Blacksmith for a 2H mace that he (in addition to the Customer) didn't notice was BoP.
Also true -- and a hefty portion of why I wouldn't have taken the tip if I'd been the Blacksmith. I think this is actually the most interesting portion of the debate because it boils down to two competing, but equally correct, directives:
- The Customer isn't wrong to offer a tip for the Blacksmith's time, because the Customer made a mistake.
- The Blacksmith isn't wrong (or, as it happened, wouldn't have been wrong) to refuse the tip, because the Blacksmith made the same mistake.
But which is it, idiot? Should the Blacksmith have taken the tip or not?
Mmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess the answer to that one depends on what kind of person you consider yourself -- and whether you accept the notion of something called opportunity cost, which (in this example) boils down to the following question:
Is making a quick 38g over a morally gray business deal today worth the potential cost to you in future business you won't receive -- or whatever else said business deal will cost you?
The Wow Economist ran an article on whether to sell or use Titansteel as a kind of a quick and dirty guide to the concept of opportunity cost, but in a nutshell, it's all about what won't happen to you as a result of the decisions you make today. If you want to run with the example that we're already arguing about, Blacksmith's immediate profit is 38g. By contrast, his opportunity cost is the hundreds of gold he would have made in repeat business from Customer and/or Customer's guildies.
What you see now is the 38g. What you don't see is the comment in a random PuG's party chat three months down the line when someone asks about where to get a Blacksmithing piece made, and Customer says, "Well, don't go to (X)."
And, leaving aside all question of ethics, with whom would you rather do business? A blacksmith who kept the tip and the 18g from vendoring the mace? Or a blacksmith who'd apologized, refused the tip, and mailed you the 18g?
And would you want the former person carrying your guild tag?
Blacksmith was a trial member of my guild, and got a negative reaction from guildmates when he related the incident in guild chat. He did not give the name of the player for whom he had made the Saronite Mindcrusher when a guildie asked about it, saying he couldn't remember. People in the guild were pretty disturbed by Blacksmith's flippant attitude and his refusal to accept any responsibility for his part in the mistake. But the clincher was probably the rude response he gave to the member who had asked for Customer's name. An officer online at the time took notice, said, "Congratulations, that's the most expensive 38g you'll ever make," and /gkicked.
Filed under: Blacksmithing, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Economy, Making money
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 8)
Niles Dec 15th 2008 9:35PM
I just hope Blacksmith needs something sometime, gives his mats to the crafter and it turns out the item is Bop. Then he might have some idea of why it's the crafter's responsibility to know their craft.
Payback can be a female cur, ya know?
Dez Dec 15th 2008 9:30PM
You're really stupid aren't ya? :) Sorry to say, while I don't like to call ppl stupid and such, if you really are plain stupid without doubt, I let you know because someone needs to open your eyes, and you need to change your attitude if you want nicer responses in the future.
What does the fact that this happened in WoW has to do with any, any, any, anything? It's so irrelevant I in fact just want to make pretend I'm a donkey. It's about Morals, Ethics, Respect, Manners, Principles, Decency. Big words for you there aye? I know :) If you downright couldn't care less about Real People in WoW, you sure as hell ain't any better in real life, because a good person in real life wouldn't do what this blacksmith did.
People also invest their time, nerves, patience and effort in this game, more or less, how dare you even imply that the fact that WoW is a virtual game makes it more okay to treat people lowly? It's just the same principle.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 9:34PM
That was a reply to #20. :P
BooDizz Dec 15th 2008 9:52PM
"You're really stupid aren't ya? :) Sorry to say, while I don't like to call ppl stupid and such, if you really are plain stupid without doubt, I let you know because someone needs to open your eyes, and you need to change your attitude if you want nicer responses in the future."
I am glad that you think you are so intellectual and perfect that you can make a total judgment of me based on a few lines i spat out (it was really more of a troll than anything...it worked). I am aloud to have my own opinion, it has nothing to do with my "attitude".
"What does the fact that this happened in WoW has to do with any, any, any, anything?"
As stated, WoW is a video game :).
"It's so irrelevant I in fact just want to make pretend I'm a donkey."
Way to have a dig at humour, maybe you'll get it next time?
It's about Morals, Ethics, Respect, Manners, Principles, Decency.
These things are totally important, i 100% agree...but not in WoW, IRL.
"Big words for you there aye?"
No, they aren't.
"I know :)"
You don't.
"If you downright couldn't care less about Real People in WoW, you sure as hell ain't any better in real life, because a good person in real life wouldn't do what this blacksmith did."
I am sorry, but i really just don't see how people can compare WoW to RL. What you have said here is "how you are in WoW is how you are in RL. What you do in WoW is what you would do in RL" - and that is just, how would you put it? Stupid.
You have no idea what that person is like IRL, so you cannot say he is a dooch, he ripped someone off in game.
People need to realize that WoW is a game. Now i know it immerses you in a lot more than other video game, so you can growth a tad bit attached to your pixels (in your case so much that you go into morals/ethics etc. crossing into WoW as if losing a bit of gold is equivalent to stealing someones car).
"People also invest their time, nerves, patience and effort in this game, more or less, how dare you even imply that the fact that WoW is a virtual game makes it more okay to treat people lowly? It's just the same principle."
I love WoW, it is a fun VIDEO GAME (I know it hurts for someone to tell you that your pixels will not transfer to excellence IRL, but come on, you gotta know some day right?). I don't think people should treat each other poorly in game either, but in the end all you can do is go "ah well, much better than buying a car with no engine IRL right?".
I'm not going to judge you and call you some basement dwelling nerd because, truthfully i would have no real idea as I haven't the slightest clue what you are like IRL, but from your comment I can clearly see you are to invested in this VIDEO GAME.
Calybos Dec 16th 2008 6:30PM
Any time you're interacting with others, it's "real life." Doesn't matter if it's in print, online, or over the phone. How you behave matters. Being unethical in WOW is no different from being unethical face-to-face; you're still a scumbag.
Congratulations to the guild for ditching this guy.
Lilene Dec 15th 2008 9:38PM
An important point I haven't seen brought up in the comments to this or the previous post (though I admit I didn't read them all thoroughly because there's only so many "nu-uh, *you're* wrong and stupid" comments I can stomach in a day) is the fact that the vast majority of the BS specialization recipes -- both weaponsmithing and armorsmithing -- create items that are BoP. I can't think of a single one from BC or later that doesn't, in fact. That should've been a huge tip-off to the BS in the first place, IMO.
Ice Princess Dec 15th 2008 9:46PM
Here's a tip... always printscreen your transactions & conversations for PROOF! Call me paranoid or OCD but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Question.... can we report activities like this to the GM? If not, I guess we just have to slander them in trade chat.
lol
Turlagh Dec 15th 2008 11:21PM
It's not slander if it's true!
Ice Princess Dec 15th 2008 11:28PM
Oh yeah! my bad LOL
Dave Dec 15th 2008 10:02PM
'accept the notion' of opportunity cost?
Do you 'accept the notion' of gravity as well?
There are certain things that exist in the world whether you notice or comprehend them. Opportunity cost is one of them and it's a big one. No, most people don't think further than their immediate future and surroundings when making decisions, but every single decision you've made, including the one to write this post, has had an opportunity cost attached to it. It's not something that goes away just because you don't know what it is when you make the choice.
Very silly choice of words. I still stand by the earlier statement that a WoW blog is not the place to be telling people how they should make their moral decisions in life, but this goes just a bit further to show how different reality works in some people and really makes it clear to me how laying out how someone else should conduct their life is best left to people doing the conducting, not the observing.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Dec 15th 2008 11:41PM
@ Dave
The same way you are suggesting how she shouldn't have conducted herself, i.e. to not air her observations (and what she feels) on a blog?
If you really believed what you just said, you wouldn't be trying to persuade her of just how mistaken she is. You would have just gone "Pfft... emo" and moved on... but you really HAVE to explain why it shouldn't be done.
Believe it or not, this IS one of the proper place to discuss ethics in a game. Disagree with them, if you will... but don't go about saying "you shouldn't be writing here because you have no right to tell people what to do" because this blog is about telling people what to do. The bloggers suggest how to improve their DPS, healing and raid survivability as well as give tips on any aspect of the game—game ethics CAN be one of them.
Keyra Dec 15th 2008 10:07PM
Early on in my rogue's WoW career, I decided that I wanted a glowy sword. Yes, call me girly, but I wanted a glowy sword, dammit!
So, I researched the mats, got them on the AH and advertised that I wanted an enchanter in Orgrimmar. I had three responses. The first was in Shat and couldn't come. The second didn't respond back. The third actually took the time to ask me, "Are you sure you want this? Your sword is fairly low-level for the enchant. Are you certain?" I said that I was and he came over, did the enchant for me (my mats) and I asked him what would be a good tip compensation. He said, "Don't worry about it." No, that wouldn't do. I was happy that I had my glowy sword, so I tipped him 10g (I had quite a bit of gold at that time from working the AH with a few things, so it wasn't that big of a deal for me). He decided that 10g was WAY too much and refunded me 5 of it.
That was one enchanter that I would definitely do repeat business with. He was ethical.
Now, fast-forward to the present. Let's say that I wanted my glowy sword today. I contact said enchanter and he ports over from wherever (this one actually came from Shat as well). He meets me on top of the Org bank and I open the trade chat and give him the mats. Now, let's say that my glowy sword is a BoP. He takes the mats, makes the sword, oops...it's BoP. Now, I'm not only out the mats (which were expensive) but the sword as well. Okay, says I, I was a noob, oops...here, here's a few gold compensation for your time. He takes the gold, chalks it up to some noob that didn't know what was what and ports back to Shat.
I'm out my mats. I'm also out my sword. Now, said enchanter sells the sword and gets even more money.
So, where am I? That's right - stuck with nothing, while the enchanter has not only the tip that I gave him (which I had agreed to in the first place, and being a woman of my word, gave to him despite not getting my glowy sword). I am being the ethical one here in honoring my word. He is being a total jerkface in not only taking that tip but selling my sword and keeping the profit.
What did he have to do? Use his hearthstone. Oh, the horror! It takes an hour to cooldown! Um...yeah.
Me? I'm a mid-level who's now out quite a few sheckles. And if I found out that he bragged about cheating some noob out of her gold? Well, you can bet that I will ensure that anyone looking for an enchanter will NOT be contacting this piece of excrement!
So, what's the big deal?
The fact that I'm out money, mats and my sword. I was being ethical in honoring my word. He, on the other hand, was being a total prick. He took my money, got even more money, then bragged about it.
So yeah, the /gkick was completely warranted, in my opinion.
Keyra Dec 15th 2008 10:15PM
Oh yeah, and to all of you who are saying, "It's only a video game", "It's virtual money in a virtual world", let me say only this:
Let's say you're level 28 (which I was when I wanted my sword). You've labored hard to get the gold necessary to afford the mats. You worked lower-level hardly-any-experience-awarded whatevers to get enough linen cloth and low-level greens to work the AH. You spent HOURS to do this. Now, you have the money and you're happy. Then some jerk takes that money for himself and you're left with nothing in return - not even the sword (or mace, or staff, or whatever) that you had wanted forged/enchanted/etc.
Yeah, it's a game. Yeah, it's virtual money. But it's REAL time spent, REAL money spent playing the game, REAL heartache when some idiot cheats you out of something that you really wanted.
So if you still think it's "just a game" and "just virtual money", then you really need to get a grip on reality and understand that yes, it's a game, yes it's virtual money, but it's also real time spent, real money spent in that real time within the game and real emotions at being cheated by a real person in the game.
Sarg Bjornson Dec 16th 2008 4:07AM
I think that the issue here is that the money isn't real, but the jerk isn't virtual
Jenn Dec 15th 2008 10:10PM
I think it's a Crafter's responsibility to know what is and isn't a BoP craftable item. I made the mistake of crafting a JC trinket for a customer without realizing it was BoP and not only refused the tip, which was still offered, but reimbursed the customer their mats from my own stash.
Mistakes happen but it's your responsibility as the Crafter to know your profession. End of story, in my opinion.
wersly Dec 15th 2008 10:12PM
customers should know enough about other professions so they dont get ripped off
and people doing work for others should know enough about the profession. if your going to do something, do it right
onetrueping Dec 15th 2008 10:12PM
What a lot of people seem to be missing is that these actions are not something that should be taken in the context of a game, but in the context of human interaction. If someone I knew took another man's money and didn't provide the service he promised, I'd change my opinion of him to the worse rather quickly.
Ethics apply in all situations, and unethical actions do not suddenly change their aspect just because context changes.
Eshina Dec 16th 2008 6:35AM
I made a similar mistake on my tailor with a set of robes someone wanted me to craft, been so long ago I can't really remember but they're the first "blue" BoP item you can craft, which is why I failed to notice they were BoP and so did customer... What REALLY made this a kick in the arse tho was that we had been doing this deal over a couple of days, cuz he couldn't afford to buy mats and was trying to farm them. I felt so bad when I went to trade those robes and I couldn't I gave the dude 30g (which was a lot for me at the time on a starter toon)
So in conclusion yes it was BS for BS to take the tip anyways =P lol Should have canceled trade and been happy for his skill up, imo.
Dez Dec 15th 2008 10:31PM
@ #27
"I am glad that you think you are so intellectual and perfect that you can make a total judgment of me based on a few lines i spat out (it was really more of a troll than anything...it worked). I am aloud to have my own opinion, it has nothing to do with my "attitude".
I'm not intellectual, I'm just a decent person. I have the right to make a judgment based on your perception that it's okay to treat others like crap in a video game. It's not "just a game", normal morals should still apply as this has to do with real people. And yes, it has something to do with your attitude. :) Like I said I try not to judge, but in this day people aren't too kind, and I feel I can at least tell you that from your misguided narrow minded statements, you must surely be nothing less of stupid. I let people know, or judge as you put it, people with attitudes that make them seem ignorant, yet they make it so innocent. Again it's a principle thing.
"As stated, WoW is a video game :)."
Irrelevant. At this part I'll refrain from saying more, as it's not needed and I wouldn't want to make this reply longer then it's gonna be.
"These things are totally important, i 100% agree...but not in WoW, IRL."
So it's okay to put aside all your "important" values, morals in a game? Imagine all the 12 million players in WoW following your advice, and we'd have World of Jerkcraft, no one would hold any regard or respect for anyone. WoW what a fun environment to spend your time in aye? And while you have a perfect life as we've established here, many do actually spend a lot of time in WoW.
"No, they aren't."
Trust me, they are, think about it. :) You need to re-evaluate the importance of things like morals and so on, because from what you've said you clearly don't see it as important as I do. And like I mentioned, I'm not intellectual, but I hold it important to stay a true and decent person and so I care about these value. It has nothing to do with being perfect or judgmental, I just see too much crap around and I won't just be okay with it. The way people are and act as persons is what decides the choices made, and that affects the world we lie in, it can't possibly be overestimated.
"I am sorry, but i really just don't see how people can compare WoW to RL. What you have said here is "how you are in WoW is how you are in RL. What you do in WoW is what you would do in RL" - and that is just, how would you put it? Stupid."
This is again why I call you ignorant, you can't see "how", that's a sign of a limited mind, or narrow if you will. And that is how I would put it, if you consider you might actually understand. Do you really think a 100% honest and "good" person would be okay with treating ppl like crap in WoW, because it's just a game? A good person won't do that, trust me, I know for one. If you're greedy and scam and whatnot in a game, that means others misfortune and feelings just aren't that important to you, more so what YOU gain. It's not rocket science. Oh and at any rate, even if you do something "bad" in a game and happen to be not be an ass in real life, as you claim, you still lead people to make that impression of you, so you can't really blame us/them/me whatever. You can't just scam ppl for gold and say "hey im a good person in real life, so its okay right?".
"People need to realize that WoW is a game. Now i know it immerses you in a lot more than other video game, so you can growth a tad bit attached to your pixels (in your case so much that you go into morals/ethics etc. crossing into WoW as if losing a bit of gold is equivalent to stealing someones car)."
This has nothing to do with comparison between a car and gold, it's the principle. (even so you're not the one to decide what's worth more to a person). Oh and I barely play WoW anymore, so yes this is about morals (and such) that's what the whole discussion is about. I'm not arguing about buhu 38 gold here, this is clearly a discussion about ethics. You can't just make the excuse that it's a game so now suddenly we can't discuss ethics. We're talking about a general thing here, not a game. Try to catch up.
"I love WoW, it is a fun VIDEO GAME (I know it hurts for someone to tell you that your pixels will not transfer to excellence IRL, but come on, you gotta know some day right?). I don't think people should treat each other poorly in game either, but in the end all you can do is go "ah well, much better than buying a car with no engine IRL right?".
No, no it doesn't hurt, I'm 21 years old and have a great life, but thanks for the concern there butch. So I'm gonna go "ah well I'm not dead so no matter what ppl treat me like at least I'm not dead" ? It could be a lot worse then loosing that gold yes, but that doesn't justify what said Blacksmith (in this case) did, what's worse is totally irrelevant. The fact is that he treat someone poorly, end of story.
"I'm not going to judge you and call you some basement dwelling nerd because, truthfully i would have no real idea as I haven't the slightest clue what you are like IRL, but from your comment I can clearly see you are to invested in this VIDEO GAME."
Yep, I've invested time in VIDEO GAMEEEEEEEE (for emphasis). I guess suddenly people who rather play video games with other people they know, obviously have a crappy life compared to those who watch TV or get drunk. Weird how the ones in MMOS always seems like more fun, enlightened, intelligent, kind, people. Again this isn't about being a nerd or the likes, it is as i've said so many times I'm starting to hate the word, it's about morals. General concept, not video game.
General concept, not video game. General concept, not video game. Sorry I just wanted to make sure you got it.
Arkhill Dec 15th 2008 10:36PM
Wall of text becomes Wall of Face! to the poster it negated. I applaud your logic good sir/madam.