The ethics of a botched deal, redux
"The ethics of a botched deal" turned out to be a much more popular article than I'd been expecting. I didn't really think the subject matter was going to result in that much commentary, but, having read all of the comments, I think I see why. Everyone's been on at least one end of a bad deal, and stuff like that is a lot more common in the early days of an expansion with new recipes, dungeons, and raids everywhere you look, with the attendant opportunities for costly mistakes.A few people quite fairly said it would be tough to make a call on the incident given the limited account I'd written in the original article. Others pointed out that you could probably draw an ethical distinction between the Blacksmith's decision to: a). accept a tip, and b). keep the gold gained from vendoring the 2H mace (and I think this is accurate, although it does raise another question. More on this in a bit). Commenters also observed that, the ethics of the Blacksmith's actions aside, you wouldn't necessarily want to be a repeat customer of his for reasons that hadn't been articulated in the original piece.
So behind the cut is a more inclusive look at the issue, a little more background on what happened, and how other players responded to it ingame.
I found the incident to be an interesting moral issue primarily because it wasn't as cut and dried as either of the following:
Scenario A: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Both parties apologize for the mistake, and the Blacksmith offers to forego a tip. Customer insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then questions guild chat wondering what the proper course of action was.Scenario B: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Blacksmith notices that the piece is BoP but needs the skill-up. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran and receives a tip from Customer. Blacksmith makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and "discovers" that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake and departs. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
You don't exactly need to reach for a copy of Ethics 101 to see that the Blacksmith is a fairly innocent party in A, but is kind of a rat bastard in B. Neither conclusion would have been tough to reach if either of these scenarios had actually been true, and neither (in my opinion) would have been worth writing about for the same reason. But neither scenario actually occurred. According to what the Blacksmith wrote in guild chat directly after the incident occurred , this is --
The real story: Customer contacts Blacksmith with materials and a tip for a 2H mace. Neither notices that the piece is BoP. Blacksmith takes the port to Orgrimmar from Dalaran, makes the mace, gets a skill-up, and discovers that the item can't be traded. Customer apologizes for the mistake, and insists on paying the tip as compensation for the Blacksmith's time. Blacksmith sells the 2H mace as he has no use for it, and then posts in guild chat gloating over his good fortune.
Now, there are several issues here that people raised that all play a role in why I think it's a worthwhile problem for discussion:
38 gold isn't a lot of money in Wrath's economy.
No, it's not. But 38g that isn't yours is still 38g that isn't yours.
The Customer was a noob. The mace was the Blacksmith's and he could do whatever he wanted with it.
The 2H mace was Blacksmith's only by virtue of being BoP. All of the materials for it were the Customer's, and the mace had been intended to be the Customer's, which no one disputes. The game mechanic that prevents the mace from being transferred to the Customer is not ethically relevant here; Customer still technically owns the mace, and thus (I would argue) the proceeds from it.
18g is not going to make up for the cost of materials, so who cares?
Well, I do, for one. So do most people, judging from the comments on the original piece.
I think you're mostly pissed off because Blacksmith had the bad taste to giggle over the incident.It certainly doesn't help, mostly because it doesn't do much to suggest that the Blacksmith was acting in good faith.
The Blacksmith deserved the tip because Customer gave it to him after they realized the mistake.
Morally I think Blacksmith is in the clear on the 25g tip for this reason. It was given in compensation for his time.
25g is a pretty hefty tip for what essentially boils down to 5 minutes and a hearthstone. It was obviously intended to compensate the Blacksmith for a 2H mace that he (in addition to the Customer) didn't notice was BoP.
Also true -- and a hefty portion of why I wouldn't have taken the tip if I'd been the Blacksmith. I think this is actually the most interesting portion of the debate because it boils down to two competing, but equally correct, directives:
- The Customer isn't wrong to offer a tip for the Blacksmith's time, because the Customer made a mistake.
- The Blacksmith isn't wrong (or, as it happened, wouldn't have been wrong) to refuse the tip, because the Blacksmith made the same mistake.
But which is it, idiot? Should the Blacksmith have taken the tip or not?
Mmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
I guess the answer to that one depends on what kind of person you consider yourself -- and whether you accept the notion of something called opportunity cost, which (in this example) boils down to the following question:
Is making a quick 38g over a morally gray business deal today worth the potential cost to you in future business you won't receive -- or whatever else said business deal will cost you?
The Wow Economist ran an article on whether to sell or use Titansteel as a kind of a quick and dirty guide to the concept of opportunity cost, but in a nutshell, it's all about what won't happen to you as a result of the decisions you make today. If you want to run with the example that we're already arguing about, Blacksmith's immediate profit is 38g. By contrast, his opportunity cost is the hundreds of gold he would have made in repeat business from Customer and/or Customer's guildies.
What you see now is the 38g. What you don't see is the comment in a random PuG's party chat three months down the line when someone asks about where to get a Blacksmithing piece made, and Customer says, "Well, don't go to (X)."
And, leaving aside all question of ethics, with whom would you rather do business? A blacksmith who kept the tip and the 18g from vendoring the mace? Or a blacksmith who'd apologized, refused the tip, and mailed you the 18g?
And would you want the former person carrying your guild tag?
Blacksmith was a trial member of my guild, and got a negative reaction from guildmates when he related the incident in guild chat. He did not give the name of the player for whom he had made the Saronite Mindcrusher when a guildie asked about it, saying he couldn't remember. People in the guild were pretty disturbed by Blacksmith's flippant attitude and his refusal to accept any responsibility for his part in the mistake. But the clincher was probably the rude response he gave to the member who had asked for Customer's name. An officer online at the time took notice, said, "Congratulations, that's the most expensive 38g you'll ever make," and /gkicked.
Filed under: Blacksmithing, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Economy, Making money
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 8 of 8)
DavidC Dec 16th 2008 12:35PM
So much fuss over a very simple matter. The BS was wrong for keeping the gold for vendoring the item. Since he did not earn the materials for said item, then he should not profit from sale of said item.
It's pretty simple. Just cause the item ended up being BoP doesn't change the deal. Since he could not give the item to the buy (re: BoP), he should have given the gold to the person (or had he been an enchanters, DE'd said item and given the gold to the buyer).
It's a very clear cut case to anybody with a modicum of Law or Ethics or even just decency.
Zan Dec 16th 2008 12:40PM
Whether what the Blacksmith did was ethically right or wrong is clearly debatable and either keeping or returning the gold can be considered correct based on whatever the two individuals agreed upon, but what I found to be a particular appeal to the realm of "right or wrong" was the bragging the Blacksmith did. A more prudent individual may have abstained from patting himself on the back, realizing his fortune did come at a cost to someone else, even if they were alright with his keeping the item and the tip.
Rialyn Dec 16th 2008 12:47PM
Thank you for posting the clarifications and results!
/cheer for you, Allison, and your Guildmates and a /salute to the officer for seeing that "The Blacksmith" is not someone that would make for a good guildmate.
Personally, I am a casual gamer and, as such, I don't want to waste my playing time with people like that. I much prefer to play with those whom I know to be good people, that I know will have my back, are willing to help others and be respectful.
Thanks for yet another interesting blog, and discourse!
jboy Dec 16th 2008 1:18PM
The customer "insisted" on giving a 25g tip for taking his mats and turning them into junk?
HAHAAHAHAA good one. More like he handed over the 25g in a tip with the mats, or did it because he's an honorable person who lives up to his end of the agreement.
The BS could have been just dumb about his professions, forgetful about people's names, having a bad day to say "life lessons are hard" and gloat....
And I've got a bridge to sell you.
Hoggersbud Dec 16th 2008 1:06PM
I think the entirety of this discussion rests on something that we don't have access to, the actual words and thoughts of the parties involved.
Not noticing an item is BOP? It happens. Sure, when somebody asks me to enchant their rings, or given them a cloak embroidery (and yes, it did happen last night), I'm going to tell them that I can't do it for them, and to read it more carefully. Is it possible a crafter could fail to notice a case where they have a BOP item? Sure, I think it's possible.
So it could be a mutual mistake.
In the real world, a mutual mistake would void most contracts, with no penalty to either party.
But due to mechanics, this can't really happen in WOW. The costs of the mats? You can't recoup them with vendoring most of the time. The tip, if any, can be returned, but me, I wouldn't have taken it, but I can understand how some people might have insisted on giving one anyway. I know that's happened to me. It's really not worth fighting over who is nicest. Gold is pretty easy to acquire, so some folks will spend it. This could also apply to the mats. Perhaps they're a miner themselves, and only have to go out and hit some nodes to get back the mats. Or maybe they're just swimming in money and don't care.
Ok, so then there's the guild chat, and whatever the one party said. Did he say something like "Well, this interesting thing just happened to me, I accidentally made a BOP item for somebody, but they still gave me a tip and I vendored it." as something of an amusement, or was it more of a jerkish taking advantage of someone approach like "haha, this idiot asked me to make a BOP item, and still give me a tip and I got the vendor money"?
I can't say. I wasn't there.
Shady Dec 16th 2008 1:14PM
What a load of crap. This is less about ethics and more about peer pressure.
1. A member gets in a massively overblown tiff with a non-member about a trivial moral issue.
2. The member post about his petty problem on a blog. Everybody gets a shot at the warm fuzzy feeling of having vented their own frustration about how life just isn't fair.
3. The member's guildies kick the newcomer. Everybody gets a warm fuzzy feeling of solidarity.
4. The member comes back and posts about it on the blog (yes, again, dear god). Everybody gets a shot at the warm fuzzy feeling of having their own frustration about how life just isn't fair externally validated.
5. I puke at the sight of this rampant circle jerk.
Calybos Dec 16th 2008 6:40PM
So the comments about ethics and morality are striking a little too close to home, are they?
The success of this and the previous column--the lengthy discussions they've generated--indicates that this is EXACTLY the sort of column that WoWInsider benefits from doing.
NOV14 Dec 16th 2008 1:21PM
"...it's all about what won't happen to you as a result of the decisions you make today."
THANK YOU. So many times do I see people trying to attribute opportunity cost as the alternative path. I am glad you properly explained the Blacksmith's opportunity cost.
COL86 Dec 16th 2008 2:00PM
intresting blog it get me feel mad and frustation att one and hove you use you word all of you is intresting
dont now hove to get the word ricgt so se you
Tseran Dec 16th 2008 3:26PM
Actually, I think the Blacksmith was wrong on both accounts. He should not have taken the tip, as he gained something for his time, the skill point. At higher levels in Wrath, that becomes very expensive. He definitely should not have kept the profits from the sale either.
A good transaction should start like this:
Buyer: Can you make Big Mace of Doom?
Seller: [Blacksmithing: Big Mace of Doom] Yup, here's the mat requirements
At this point, both have seen the item and the requirements to make it, and should have noticed BoP status. Notice no one has gone anywhere yet, and the amount of time wasted is just that of opening a tradeskill window and linking a recipe.
Blizzard gave us the ability to link recipes for a reason.
Fyve & Boomstick Dec 16th 2008 10:01PM
I still dont understand the problem here. so, customer was disappointed no mace but otherwise happy. Didnt ask the blacksmith for the money back made from vendoring the mace or whatever? personally, i wouldve told the dude, "Its BoP" but c'mon.
So, I'm a leatherworker, a guy wants the trollweave stuff. I tell him i am high enough level to craft it, but i dont have the patterns. Fellow buys the 4 arctic furs needed. Gives them to me along with mats for the items, I buy the pattens, craft the goods, get 2 skillups AND the dude tips me 20g.
So, I post in GC "WOOHOO! i just got 2 patterns, 2 skill points, AND 2o g tip from some sucker who was DESPERATE to get the trollweave stuff" Sooo, I get gkicked for being smug?
Doesnt matter if its a skill up, gold, extra mats, whatever. If the customer has gone away with no hard feelings (except kicking himself that he didn't know it was BoP/or maybe that he didnt need to tip as he bought the patterns) What the hell is the problem?
"Most expensive 38g he'll ever make." Yours the only guild raiding on your server is it? Sounds a bit smug to me. GKICK!!!!!!
lycanther Dec 18th 2008 11:47AM
The Blacksmith _must_ return the mats to the customer even if he has to buy them off the AH--or gold equivalent of the fair market price of the mats if the customer agrees. That is the huge elephant in the room that too few people are paying attention to. If you can get the mats back via a GM ticket, great...but the crafter has the ethical obligation to return the mats (or equivalent) to the customer regardless. Anyone who fails to do this should be /gkicked no matter whether they are gloating or apologetic.
Now after that's out of the way...if the customer feels like giving a tip, that's fine. It's unnecessary since even the vendor value is more than enough of a tip, but go ahead and keep the tip if it's offered after the above issues have been resolved.
Sephone Dec 18th 2008 3:55PM
Here's why I don't buy that the BS didn't know the weapon was BoP:
The Saronite Mindcrusher is a weaponsmithing weapon - meaning that you have to be a trained weaponsmith to make it - and its not a short or easy process to train as a weaponsmith - all weaponsmith weapons have always been BoP and only usable by the weaponsmith. My paladin has been a weaponsmith since lvl 60, and sported the Lionheart Excecutioner through all of BC - you didnt see many of those around because they were only usable by swordsmiths. Thats how its always been with weaponsmithing.