The ethics of a botched deal
by Allison Robert 
Dec 15th 2008 at 2:00PM
My chat box isn't usually a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but on occasion it turns up a few statements that'll make your eyebrows execute a shuttle launch. One such morsel popped up recently in the form of an amused snicker from an acquaintance who'd applied to raid with my guild in Wrath. He'd just made himself a quick 38 gold off a blacksmithing deal gone awry and was having a laugh over his good fortune. A leveling player had asked him to meet in Orgrimmar to make a Saronite Mindcrusher and could provide both materials and a tip. The applicant obliged, ported to Org from Dalaran, made the mace, and then they discovered that it was BoP and thus unusable by the customer. The disappointed player thanked him for his time, tipped him anyway for making the trip, and went on his way (according to the person who shall henceforth be known as The Blacksmith)."So not only did I get a 25g tip," he concluded smugly, "but I also made 13g vendoring the mace."
That dog won't hunt, Monsignor. "You did give the guy the 13g at least?" I asked. "I mean, those were his mats, the mace wasn't yours."
"No. Why would I? It was his mistake."
To quote everyone who has ever set foot on the internet ever, ORLY?
UPDATE: The post got a lot more attention than I expected, so I've written an addendum here that gives a little more insight into what happened.
The Blacksmith and I had a little tiff, which eventually became a big tiff, which then transcended the accepted boundaries of tiffitude to become a conflict on the approximate scale of Hiroshima. As far as he was concerned, he hadn't done anything wrong. It was entirely the customer's fault that the piece was BoP, and he (The Blacksmith) was entitled to the gold for the inconvenience of having to burn his hearthstone over the error."But is porting from Dalaran to Org really worth 25g?" I asked. "And it wasn't just this guy's mistake. You didn't look at the pattern either, or know your own profession well enough to know right off the bat that it was BoP."
"I didn't look. Why would someone give me the mats to make a BoP item?"
"You shouldn't make someone pay more than they should have to for a mistake that both of you made."
I'm sure he was shrugging at his computer. "Life lessons suck."
"This isn't a life lesson. This is you getting paid a tip for a service you couldn't actually provide, making money off an item you didn't own, and then bragging about it."
Personally, I'm still not sure this guy was telling the truth about not noticing that the piece was BoP, but let's accept for the moment that it was an innocent mistake on his end. So assuming he didn't go into this with the intent of cheating anyone, Blacksmith could have done one of three things:
- Nothing: His choice. Certainly the most lucrative, but it does oblige you to put up with people who are very annoying (like me).
- Keep the tip but return the 13g from vendoring the mace: In my opinion, this was the very least the Blacksmith could have done. He didn't buy or farm the mats for the mace; it was only his by virtue of being BoP. And I don't know about anybody else, but on my realm the mats for this mace aren't exactly cheap. They're not amazingly expensive on the level of, say, a Titansteel Guardian, but they're still worth a lot more than the 13g. Blacksmith obviously couldn't have given the materials back to the customer, and 13g wouldn't have recouped its cost either, but regardless of how much the piece vendored for, Blacksmith wasn't (I felt) entitled to the proceeds from its sale.
- Return both the tip and the 13g: Later in the argument, Blacksmith made the point that 25g isn't a lot of money given Wrath's general inflation, and 13g won't cripple anyone either. I don't think the amount makes a difference. You shouldn't accept a tip just because someone else made the same mistake you did but was the only person to accept responsibility for it. Keeping the 13g was just icing on the cake.
Filed under: Blacksmithing, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Economy, Making money
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 12)
minttunator Dec 15th 2008 2:11PM
Sorry to sound like a troll, I'm honestly a nice person, but...
You seriously got into a fight with your friend for some noob's 38g? And your friend felt that 38g was a large enough profit to warrant boasting about it? I mean, really, 38g at level 80 (I assume he is, since he's applying to a guild)? :o
Lian Dec 15th 2008 2:20PM
Re-read. The Blacksmith was not 'a friend' but an 'acquaintance'.
Jamus Dec 15th 2008 2:25PM
It's a matter of principle. It's a matter of being responsible for a mistake that you in part made. It's about being courteous. The blacksmith is wrong is so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
This same person might "accidentally" ninja the next piece of legendary that he can't use, shrug off and say "Life lessons suck".
If I'm the customer, I wouldn't have asked for a refund, but I'd walk off and never do business with the Blacksmith again... and if he asks for any compensation for his non-work, I'd do everything in my power to make sure he never gets any business or run with any decent guild until he pays his $15 US dollars penance and change his name and identity.
As an aside, that is one classy customer for handing over a tip after having all the crafting materials blown away by a careless blacksmith.
kworry Dec 15th 2008 3:12PM
I'm with Jamus, you should deny the Blacksmiths application and find the customer. THAT'S the kind of person you want in your guild.
Kassel Dec 15th 2008 4:43PM
The argument was not about 35g. The argument was about the principle of keeping the tip and the mats (which, incidentally, cost far more than 35g to buy and take time to farm and smelt).
O.K. So the buyer forgot -or didn't notice- that the item was BoP when he looked at the plans to get the material list.
I can even see that the crafter might not notice either. I've done that as a leatherworker, crafted an item for a guild-mate and only realized afterwards that it was BoP. It happens.
In our case though, that usually devolves into an argument of "Oh no, I insist!" when trying to force the other one to accept materials or equal value in gold or, conversely, me being told I should keep the tip for my trouble.
Bleh. Longish post. Sorry.
Making mistakes? It happens.
Being a jerk about it? It happens too, but it's still being a jerk.
Graham Dec 15th 2008 6:44PM
minttunator, read the last sentence again.
"At the end of the day, I also have difficulty believing that people who cheat you over small matters wouldn't cheat you over larger ones as well."
THIS is the scary part of the article. Who knows how much money the Blacksmith could have taken had the item been more expensive. It doesn't matter that it was a small amount. It doesn't even matter if it was one copper; it's still wrong.
And it was not just the buyer's fault. The Blacksmith definitely should have at least checked to see if it was BoP or not. If it was an honest mistake, it would not have been difficult to just say "sorry" and ask if he wanted the money back. If he had asked, there is a fair chance that the buyer would have let him keep it.
But not only did he not offer to return anything, he BRAGGED about it. I find that particularly sickening. It's greed like this that causes economic crises.
My God Dec 15th 2008 2:10PM
Are you seriously wasting bandwidth with this crap?
If the customer was too stupid to even research what he was buying, he deserves to lose his gold.
Arcaria Dec 15th 2008 2:16PM
I don't disagree but at the same time, I wouldn't have accepted his money and i would have just vended the piece as payment.
Someone already spent a decent amount of either money or time farming all those mats and suffered the disappointment and probably embarassment of realizing it was BoP too late.
I'm sure this point will be argued by both sides. Some people are empathetic while others are just pathetic. The first group would at least offer to give his tip back. The second group would just take the money, vend the item and then brag about some dumbass that just paid them too much.
Demas Dec 15th 2008 2:50PM
Actually, I find that this brings up a very interesting point. What, if any, ethics are involved when playing this game?
Personally, I believe the least he could have done is return the gold from selling the BoP item and the tip.
Todd Dec 15th 2008 2:32PM
I agree with My God in that he's a moron.
Robert M Dec 15th 2008 2:38PM
"Are you seriously wasting bandwidth with this crap?"
Are you seriously wasting comment space, bandwith, and your own time to bash on a post that many people could benefit from?
The complete lack of any morality for so many players is one of the reasons I absolutely hate the game somedays. People who, at the very least, lack any consideration for mistakes are part of the problem.
The gold is somewhat insignificant at that level in the game, so I don't necessarily believe it should have been returned, but the blacksmith might have found that being a nice guy would have gone a lot farther.
As an enchanter, I often find myself with the leftover shards after a PUG. If there are enough shards for everyone, and someone hearths out, I mail them the shard. Almost all of the time, and I mean almost ALL, the person returns the shard to me because they don't need it or want it.
Being a nice guy goes a long way even in WoW, and is almost always better than choosing to be the Mr. Hyde that's hiding behind your keyboard and monitor.
Eternauta Dec 15th 2008 3:05PM
/agree with My God
Stop with these stupid "moral lessons" on wowinsider.
talkingmike Dec 15th 2008 3:18PM
See, there's irony here: people cry, "Stop the preaching!" in the same breath as saying, "Oh, he deserved it!"
Deadly. Off. Topic. Dec 15th 2008 3:20PM
Lets see:
Person who makes stuff knows the plans - person who asks for stuff does not. Where does the responsibility lay? Obviously, it lies with the crafter. The very Bottom line - period. As the crafter he is the one responsible and it is HIS job to inform the customer what he can provide and what he can’t provide. The fact that he could make the item means crap all. He could still NOT provide it to the customer. As such, he failed as a supplier and that means he MUST return the mats he “stole.”
And in short it is theft. The fact that he could not hand over the item does NOT entitle him to keep the stuff. Keeping stuff makes him to be a thief. Because in the end, the cold hard fact is that he didn’t farm the mats or the gold, he thiefed it. Returning the cash at least and NOT taking the tip would have been the best way to go about it. I wouldn’t even have tipped the selfish thief since it’s extremely suspicious that he couldn’t warn the other guy that the item is BOP. You have to click the plans to start crafting, it’s pretty evident that you can read off the icon that it is BOP so there’s no real excuse in not informing the person - “Oh wait, my bad, this is a BOP pattern.” So basically you’re telling us he’s illiterate since he can’t read his own plans.
And just for the record, I’m a blacksmith too on my main. I always make it a habit to tell people if it’s BOE or not. It’s just common sense. Anyone with half a brain should know this. Too bad your blacksmith friend is the kind of selfish jerk who likes to make money off other people by pretending that he doesn’t know what his own plans are like.
Vendrill Dec 15th 2008 4:07PM
Hmmm.... I can see by quite a few of these comments who is most likely a decent person and who is a jerk.
If someone is going to go and collect mats and commission a BS or any other crafter to make an item and tip them in the 25G range, then that item is most likely an epic. How the hell does someone who levels a profession to endgame levels NOT know that item is a BoP?
Quite likely "Blacksmith" knew that it was BoP and made the item anyway TO GET A SKILL UP.
Even if we give "Blacksmith" the benefit of the doubt and he didn't know the item was BoP because he was a dumbass, then he still SHOULD NOT have accepted a 25G tip.
The person probably spent close to 1000G if not more to collect those mats which were then dumped down the toilet by "Blacksmith".
It's a matter of DECENCY!
When people are considerate to me, I appreciate it... whether it's in real life or in WoW.
People who are abusive or deceitful or unethical have no place in my guild. Period. I do not tolerate that at all, nor should any of you.
I respect everyone's rights to their own opinions, but if people don't have the decency to treat others respectfully and be honorable, then they can go to hell.
This is not up for debate.
Xandrence Dec 15th 2008 4:34PM
I can't say that I'm a huge fan of how this article was written. I wouldn't mind a piece on WoW Ethics and things like that, but this one struck me as a little odd.
Anyway, I guess I'll add my personal opinion regarding the situation while I'm at it...for what it's worth. I don't think the guy actually did anything "wrong". It's not the way I would of handled it, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do.
Obviously anybody with 1/2 a brain (or maybe less) would assume that the Blacksmith was not going to just go ahead and trash the weapon. He'd be pretty stupid to do that. So if the customer did not give him any specific instructions then what's the big deal?
It would be a different story if there was some deception on the part of the Blacksmith, but there wasn't.
hold up Dec 15th 2008 6:39PM
Maybe My God is the blacksmith in the story. That's the only reason I can see for someone being so completely up their own ass that they can't see the moral wrong that was done.
At the absolute most you should keep 3g for your flight back to Dalaran, deny the tip (since no service was provided) and give the purchaser the other 10g for the vendor sale.
What the Blacksmith did in this story was stealing. He knowingly took the persons materials and didn't even return the cost of vendoring the item.
What would happen if you hired a craftsman to install new kitchen tiles in your kitchen. You paid the man and bought the tiles you wanted installed. Then after the craftsman takes your money and supplies he tells you that the tiles you bought wont fit in your kitchen... Thanks for the money. Have a good day.
1) The craftsman would get sued.
2) The craftsman wouldn't be in business anymore.
Usually when I find a good person that has the enchants/patterns I need I go back to them because I know they are reliable and I don't have to worry about them ripping me off. Sure you may have stole 38g, but you probably lost much more if that person would have been buying a new upgrade later.
Stupid Blacksmith.
Marc Dec 15th 2008 11:53PM
'My God', you are the worst kind of person and I hope I never meet you or someone like you ingame. (Seriously, can't you even enter a proper name you dimwit?)
I would have refused to take the tip and returned the money from vendoring the item and apologised profusely. It does not matter whose fault it is, it's just the decent thing to do. And if you can't understand this you are a failure both at WoW and real life.
Shady Dec 16th 2008 12:11PM
@hold up
When I pay a crafter his "tip", what is it that I'm paying *for* exactly? The service of pressing a button, I hear everyone say. The reason I pay at all (rather than, say, press the button myself) is because the crafter went to some length to gain the ability to craft that item, therefore that service is a somewhat rare commodity, therefore it costs money to get someone to perform it. If the service is performed, the fee is warranted.
In this case, the customer looked up the exact item he wanted. He gathered the materials and consigned a crafter to put them together, paying him a fee to do so. The crafter did exactly what he was paid to do, i.e. take time off whatever else he was doing, port to Org and press a button for the guy. Since the item turned out to be soulbound and the customer could not retrieve it, the only thing he was entitled to was the vendor price / shard off the item. From the story it sounds like he really didn't care to be petty and simply moved on.
Now sure, you can blame the crafter for not being charitable enough to give some of the money back as a some sort of consolation. You can certainly label him a bad sport and call him out for Schadenfreude. But in no way, shape or form is the crafter guilty of any professional misconduct.
And thus your whole analogy is flawed. This is more like you paying me to paint your house hot pink. You pick out and buy the paint, I provide time and skill (for which I am paid), the deed is done. If you then come back and say "oh crap, hot pink is hideous", what do you expect me to do? Refund the paint? I didn't pay for it, you provided the materials. Refund the labor costs? No, the time and effort has already been spent. At the end of the day, you have an ugly pink house, I have a paycheck and a funny story to tell my buddies over beers, and it's nobody's fault but your own.
So yes, this is a life lesson. It just seems that the customer in the story learned it a long time ago, took it in stride, and moved on, while the people here still cling to childish ideas of what constitutes "fair".
James Stevenson Dec 15th 2008 2:10PM
The Blacksmith should have offered at least to return the tip. Doing nothing is pretty much being an arse.
The Blacksmith is not entitled to do anything, but doing nothing generally means you are a jerk at least