Shifting Perspectives: So. Um, do bears suck?: Part II
Dungeon design (or, as Rowlf of Thrall calls it, "World of AOEcraft"):
One of the things that I noticed immediately about tanking 5-mans in Wrath is that it is typically much harder to LOS mob packs here than in BC. The nooks and crannies that you abused all the time to force mobs to move into a narrow area just don't seem to exist as frequently -- and where they do exist, they seem to be largely ineffective. Whether this is intended, I don't know, but it does make mob placement -- something that Druid tanks are very dependent on -- significantly more difficult, particularly in the following contexts:
1. Heroic Azjol-Nerub: The three mob packs before the first boss are very hard, bordering on impossible, to position correctly. The caster just never wants to move, and there's no truly effective means of LOSing him.
2. Heroic Oculus: I remember zoning into Oculus for the first time with the hall of dragons directly ahead of me and being utterly bewildered as to where the hell I was supposed to LOS a pull full of casters. Pro tip: you can't. You might as well let the mage tank, because he's going to be doing it anyway.
3. Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle: The gauntlet event for Skadi the Ruthless. This one takes winner, place, and show in exemplifying Swipe's problems as a means of holding AoE aggro. The moving trash spawns are not always, or even usually, within Swipe range of each other, which means that at least one or two of them will be well on their way to the healer by the time Swipe comes off the GCD. The usual means of dealing with this is to turn around and Feral Charge whatever got past you if it's more than one mob, or Growl if it's just one, exposing yourself to additional damage in the process and more likely than not losing aggro to DPS on the ones Swipe did manage to pick up.
Doing UP on heroic was actually the first truly disquieting moment I had in Wrath tanking. We had wiped on the event three times due to my inability to hold aggro to DPS while chasing mobs that Swipe had missed, and our healer was getting exasperated: "Guys, you can't DPS just because she's hit something. She's not a Paladin, she's a Druid."
I squirmed. Ouch, baby. Very ouch.
4. Heroic Gun'drak: Slad'ran (the snake boss) -- If game mechanics allowed for it, Gun'drak would have been burned to the ground two weeks after launch, and from a distance you would have seen a bear dancing on the rubble. Swipe and Demoralizing Roar seem completely ineffective at gluing any of the moving adds to you on their way to the healer, no matter how you position the boss.
5. Heroic Halls of Stone: The Brann Bronzebeard event is very unpopular with Druid tanks and for good reason. It combines all of the problems of the Skadi event (moving mob packs) with the very unwelcome element of two spawn points. The proverbial cherry on top is the achievement for doing this event without allowing Brann to take any damage, and most of the responsibility for this lies with the tank.
6. Sartharion (10-man or 25-man): If you're main-tanking Sartharion, no problems. If your guild is trying the event with drakes up and you're the drake tank, no problems. If you're the "portal tank" picking up a phased add with a drake up, no problems. If you're the unfortunate bugger who has to be the elemental tank, may God or possibly Ghostcrawler have mercy on your furry little soul.
7. Heroic Violet Hold: A lot of people have cited the annoyance of the Shadowstep mobs here. I haven't personally had too many issues with them -- although they are, don't get me wrong, incredibly irritating -- but they do require you to reposition all over again to avoid the additional damage from a mob you can't dodge.
8. Heroic Caverns of Time: Culling of Stratholme: If your group wants the Reins of the Bronze Drake off the Infinite Corruptor, AoEing down mob packs to save time is usually the way to go. Is this doable with a Druid tank? Yes. Fun? Not really.
As far as I see it, Swipe getting a 50% threat buff is going to be a big help on mob packs that can be positioned correctly -- and I would argue that a plurality of Wrath mob pulls do fall into this category -- and it'll give us time to get Infected Wounds applied to mobs in order to reduce incoming damage.
So, at least for me personally, the challenge is learning whether the uglier and more obstinate mob pulls can be affected by some trick of geography in the dungeons that I'm not aware of, or if the problem ultimately lies elsewhere. Swipe does seem to have a fairly dismal record with respect to moving mobs in gauntlet-style events or spawned adds. Further dungeon experience may render this a moot point, but for the moment, I'm not really all that eager to tank Halls of Stone again.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
emodruid Dec 16th 2008 8:37PM
My druid was the first character I made, played all the way through classic and TBC :( Dropped her for my warrior, haven't looked back.
dejoblue Dec 17th 2008 7:08AM
I have encountered all of the listed problems.
Tanking has become a chore on my Druid. I used to literally pull Shattered Halls in 4 pulls, pro group excellent healer, everyone including myself pulling out all of the stops, lock in tow kiting an elite, mage novaing what he could and focus firing down mobs. it was my favorite time in all of WoW ever.
i simply am not able to do this anymore. There are mostly 3 - 4 pulls now and they all hit hard. I regrow, rejuve, lifebloom and pull with swipe and maul(glyphed, and old school tab target back and forth and it just isn't enough sometimes. DPS is used to the more populous Warrior and Pally tanks and start to AOE immediately. I used to have a quite a bit of time to establish aggro before the healer had to heal me, usually a POM and renew kept me up until serious healing began. Now I am constantly finding healers taking aggro because they HAVE to heal me before I have established aggro.
A lot of this is due to the agility nerf and level reset versus fresh level 80+ mobs. Even so I am comparing Shattered Halls in greens and quested/crafted blues to current 4 piece t7 and a couple Naxx 213 epics in tow.
next patch we get a significant armor upgrade, i gain around 10% DR overall and the Swipe buff will leave me standing about right. I worry about other druid tanks that arent as geared as me or as experienced. I am frustrated now and I can only imagine how they feel.
But its still good. I remember off tanking BWL and struggling with that, not to mention acceptance and relentless scrutiny from my raid leaders. So this is still a place i can work within.
The LOS issue is certainly there, but it can be worked with. Make your group stay back and pull back, far back nowadays.
Overall I am not satisfied with my bear tank. it is difficult to discern if it is me, the class or the group I am in. A lot of it DOES have to do with healers and DPS having to relearn how to play with bears and when to heal and DPS with them etc.
Anyways that is my experience.
Regards
Piratexdave Dec 18th 2008 2:21AM
After getting my druid up to bout the best gear our small time raiding guild could get, I decided to make a warrior gnome tank just for the funnies...I actually hated it leveling was a PITA, and tanking instances was harder than a druid by a long shot. Then came 3.0 and OMG I haven't even thought about going to a druid tank again.
PS pls don't nerf warrior tanks lol
reroll Dec 16th 2008 8:55PM
I totally agree with this. I tanked with my feral druid all through BC and it was great. Things were difficult at times when I first started, but I learned to cope with the disadvantages of being a bear tank.
After wotlk was released and I tanked a couple of the new heroics on my druid, I decided I was done. I rerolled a DK and can't believe how much easier tanking is at 80. Deathgrip combined with real aoe tanking makes things a cinch. I had no idea how bad druid tanking really was until then. I don't think this is something that's really fixable without changing the core class mechanics of druids, but I can tell you that the grass certainly is greener.
computermachina Dec 16th 2008 9:02PM
I love that im something not seen very much on my server as a bear tank thus I can't bring myself to abandoning my character even if we are in a rough patch atm. Though I do notice for the sake of spamming swipe and glyphed-maul to keep the mobs in line I sacrifice not keeping superb aggro on the main guy and in raids that just wont do. And caster mobs have become my bane.
gaz Dec 16th 2008 9:09PM
I raided as a druid tank through most of the TBC content, pretty much everything up to sunwell(not including) after tanking a few wrath instances myself and seeing other tanking classes effortlessly steam roll instances i've decided that druid tanking isn't what it used to be anymore and as Blizzard strip more of our armour away with each new patch we are becoming so hard to heal that groups are becoming hard to find. I've switch to Balance now and consitantly do competitive dps. I'm known as a good player, by many people and if i stay as a feral tank i'm afraid i would loose that rep just cos i would be compared to other tanking classes
Guadios Dec 16th 2008 9:18PM
Well, seems like i'm the exception to this rule, didn't have any difficulty to clear all normal and heroic instances as a feral tank, it sure requires a lot more of skill than other tanks, but know what, i love challenges.
With the huge threat generation we have, you can simply land a mangle and a maul on a caster and forget about him for the rest of the fight. Rest is mob-by-mob management (maul glyph helps a lot with it).
I also have a warrior tank, but for nothing on the world i'd drop my druid.
MisterMoose Dec 17th 2008 12:08AM
Two GCDs, probably some reposition involved, and basically a slower overall threat buildup. That means mobs stay alive for longer and you take more damage compared to other tanks.
It's fine for you to enjoy it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a serious problem.
Dejoblue Dec 17th 2008 7:16AM
Yea, heroics are not so much difficult as they are just frustrating and needlessly difficult in areas, if you understand my meaning.
I used to be ever vigilant of adds and patrols and looking ahead to the next pull and marking the next pull. In Wrath I am simply ever vigilant in making sure that WHEN a mob I am tanking gets loose I pick it up and where I can reposition myself when that happens. Instances are slowed down significantly due to this and my personal satisfaction and sense of success and accomplishment is severely diminished. The run gets done, I usually get compliments, but I don't like the way I performed or what I had to do to be successful.
jaybarti Dec 16th 2008 9:19PM
I believe the real problem is that bears where the baseline for how blizz wanted all tanks to be in WotLK.
More generalized less specialized.
The druid was the model and while all the other tanks were getting buffed up to speed. Feral was being split down the middle forcing a divided between kitty and bear.
I really hope blizz gets back to bears and fix the problems, I am a scant 1 week away from hitting 80 on my Pali tank and going back and leveling my bear tank the pick-up 10 mans my GF runs.
mark Dec 16th 2008 9:21PM
my druid has been my main ever since I started playing 3+ years ago. I've been feral since a little before 2.0. and while my druid probably will remain my main, since I hit 80 on her, she's been sitting the sidelines while I raid on a different character.
I flat out told my guild I wouldn't be raiding on my druid until blizz figured out what they wanted to do with the spec. I just get this overwhelming impression that while blizz does want us to be in-line with other classes, they haven't the slightest clue how to go about doing it so we get to play guinea pig while they twist us back and forth till they figure it out. it just got to the place where it was too frustrating trying to gear and play so I decided to switch characters for now.
Shamad Dec 16th 2008 9:25PM
I believe HoL also warrants a mention, the first hunters in the first mob-packs have a disengage style move which gets them squarely out of range. One such mob can be dealt with easily enough, charge it or growl at it to keep it on you(something I find myself resorting to more and more as swipe fails), but with two such mobs in the same pack, it's pretty much control one and hope the other one doesn't kill anyone until you can get to it. Furthermore the slight "gauntlet" before the 3rd boss in HoL with packs of 4 spawning from each side is quite annoying to pick up, with good positioning you might manage 3 but usually atleast one mob roams free for some time, quite possibly long enough to kill a squishy in a lesser geared group.
What bugs me the most is that so many achievements are so much harder, sometimes nigh on impossible, for druid tanks to accomplish. It doesn't feel good to know that my guildies would rather run it with one of the other tanks, nor that some of these just aren't within my reach unless I go dps.
I believe swipe needs not only more threat, but the requirement to target a mob needs to be dropped from it, so that it becomes a generalized cone attack. Furthermore, this just makes sense as you compare it to any other cone attack or aoe-tanking ability.
The only thing left after this is the problem that druid tanking simply is quite tedious as it's reduced to simply swiping and mauling all the time.
Yakuko Dec 17th 2008 7:43AM
"I believe swipe needs not only more threat, but the requirement to target a mob needs to be dropped from it, so that it becomes a generalized cone attack. Furthermore, this just makes sense as you compare it to any other cone attack or aoe-tanking ability."
This. That's the one issue I have with swipe right now. I've played a feral druid since pre-BC and had two of them at level cap during BC. However, I rerolled paladin with the expansion after losing over 10k armor on both of them. I know for the most part druids are still capable, and we got a lot of really nice stuff with the expansion, but there were just too many things I don't really agree with. Sad because I loved my druids.
Steve Dec 16th 2008 9:25PM
I'd actually have to disagree with all of you guys, I actually have a fairly easy time with tanking mobs on most of those heroics. With 31k hp unbuffed in mostly blues, I find myself with surprisingly tons of beefyness AND ability to hold aggro with as Computermachnia pointed out with glyph of maul. However I would agree that we have NOTHING to pull casters, but I usually just get back far enough and feral charge them and tank groups around casters (yes this trick works with heroic Azjol). I would say the hardest instance for me to tank is Heroic Drak due to the last boss... The switching forms is sometimes glitched and I hold none of my health/armor in the skeleton form, I usually have a plate wearer hold aggro in skelie form cause I take too much damage when we switch out. I would say I'm fairly well geared and usually able to hold threat, maybe that's just me. I spend the time spamming swipe and maul, with fairie fire pulling and save my taunt for those OH CRAP THE MAGE PULLED situations. I would argue the problem for us are a lack of silence to pull groups together, not aggro. I'm actually enjoying tanking in Wrath, but I might be the only one doing it as a bear :P
jaybarti Dec 16th 2008 9:31PM
:D
Druid AOE pull mechanic
Deafening Roar
Make it an semi-targetable cone AOE silence on a 5 minute cooldown or something similar.
Aluren Dec 17th 2008 4:53AM
Oh thanks god, someone not whining. I totally agree. If any of you find it is huge problem to position yourself for effective swiping or charge/lacerate/bash caster. Or just LOS him to get him close. You should not tank. I really enjoy WOTL tanking and I am glad I can compete in top dmg in 10Nax when second tank is not necessary or respec and heal the raid, when we lack healers. This is class I very enjoy playing.
Nehru Dec 17th 2008 10:28AM
You know, I have to agree. I was DPS until my GF and I got tired of looking for tanks and healers mid TBC, and so we leveled my Druid and her pally. I tank, she heals.
I now have Heroic Dungeonmaster, cleared Plague Wing last night and I've had few problems with my threat, even on large pulls (Except in Occulus. I agree here, the damn things should be forced to melee for 4 seconds or something). It takes more thought (Pro Tip: Skadi in H!UP should be done in 2 pulls. After you engage, run to the middle of the hall and start spaming swipe. AoE down, pick up Harpoons, run to the end, wash rinse repeat. Throw harpoons, own his butt) and more SKILL (look at that, caps are the cruise control to cool!) but it's not impossible or even hard once you get the concept.
What I'm seeing here is a lot of, "Make us easy like them!" I don't want that. Druids are harder to play as tanks, and more complicated as DPS. But if you do it right, nothing can kill us, and nobody can catch our DPS.
Siaperas Dec 16th 2008 9:26PM
I play prot warrior warrior mostly. While we have much better aoe tanking ability than druids now, I remember a time not too long ago when I looked at Shattered Halls with no CC, and asked, "You want me to do what?"
Maybe it was my server, but I noticed as pally tanks got to be more popular, the common trash pull started to become, "Just pull it and we'll AOE it down." I don't have too much of a problem performing that strategy now (I still think I could perfect my rotations a bit), but I still prefer classes that can use CC to actually use it.
I could be that I worry too much, or it could be that maybe I miss the "old" days when CC in a party was requisite. It just seems to me that a lot of players have a shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later play style, and while that works through most pulls, I still miss the days when I felt like everybody in the group had to bring a new skill and tactics for different dungeons and groups had to think about how they were going to get through those tricky pulls. That's just what I've observed and feel; I could be completely wrong in assuming that's how it is.
Nick Dec 16th 2008 9:56PM
tree form ftw! respec resto lol
chris Dec 16th 2008 9:58PM
1. Heroic AN
I - a war - was having difficulty w/ this pull, so here is how you los em.
MOVE BACK...way back...think you have gone back enough? YOU HAVENT!
Seriously though,
When you first turn right into the corridor leading to those 3 3-mob packs is where I tank them. Pull them and run back to the right corner and turn around. 1 mob will reach you first start hitting on him then do swipe when the other 2 reach you.
The requirements:
1. Mark the first pack and the skirmisher on the other pack (or the first one to go down in each other pack).
2. Pulling, I pull with a gun and I dont know if a druid can do something similar - fairy fire then bear?
But that should fix up that pull - stay there and the next packs just come to you so swipe and you are on your merry way!