Shifting Perspectives: So. Um, do bears suck?
Every Tuesday, Shifting Perspectives explores issues affecting Druids and those who group with them. This week we shelve the column we originally intended to run due to a rather pressing matter.OK, folks. I have a confession to make. This week's Shifting Perspectives was originally meant to be a full guide to gearing your Restoration Druid at 80, and I'm still going to post that, either this week or next. A lot of people have (correctly, I think) observed that this column has historically paid more attention to Feral than to Restoration or Balance, and it's my aim to balance (har!) that out a bit. Part of it is just that the people who play Druids on staff here at WoW Insider are usually feral, and part of it is that -- at least as of the last numbers we had on it -- most people playing Druids are also feral. I confess I would love to see the demographics on Druids post-Wrath, because I get the sense that Balance in particular has become markedly more popular.
But the Resto post is going to have to wait a few days, not least because my eyes are swimming from so much Wowhead. We found out today that Swipe's threat is getting a significant buff, but over the course of reading the pertinent forum thread and some back-channel discussion here, I ran across a few things concerning bear tanking that really made me sit up after the hell of tanking last night's heroic Old Kingdom and go, "Wait. It's not just me?"
Personally whenever I encounter serious problems in a dungeon I tend to chalk it up to the fact that I suck. I find this to be an efficient and typically accurate means of pinpointing the source of an issue. However, my fellow Druids, our problems may actually be more wide-ranging than that.
I don't mean this to be an inflammatory post, because I despise forum threads whose theme appears to be "LOL BUFF MEH." When Wrath hit, I was pretty sure the future was bright for feral tanks, and I continue to believe this. I also don't believe that the issues being discussed in this article really apply outside of 5-mans and heroics -- but by golly, are they ever a nuisance there. This is about a problem with bear tanking that just so happens to conflict badly with players' approach to Wrath dungeons -- namely, the desire to just AoE trash packs down and get on to the next pull. We are the tank least equipped for that task.
Do I think Druids are bad tanks? No. I think we're excellent tanks, and I see plenty of guilds using them in a main tank capacity on both 10- and 25-man raids. The mechanics of Druid tanks make them superb at raid tanking.
Do I think there are a lot of situations in 5-mans and heroics where the Druid tank is at an unintended, but fairly serious, disadvantage? Yes. And I think the whole "unintended" part was partly the result of more inventive dungeon design that had a somewhat ghastly side effect for a tank so dependent on positioning.
After seeing the forum thread on Swipe, I tracked down another thread referenced there (and one that I'm still not sure how I missed), "Least Favorite Tank To Heal and Why" in the new Healing forum. Long story short, Druids and Death Knights are currently competing for the dubious honor of the forumgoers' least favorite tanks. There are two consistent themes (before it evolves into a more unhelpful clearinghouse of Druid and DK defensiveness, and the usual catcalls of L2PNOOB):
- Bears are hard to heal and have problems holding AoE threat.
- That's if you can find a Druid tank at all.
Healer scaling
Healers seem to have issues healing Druid tanks (with their typically higher health pools) to full in a mana-efficient manner. I think this is mostly a problem of gear at the moment, as healing efficiency quickly outscales tank HP, but I do pour a lot more of my mana bar into keeping Druids topped off than other tanks. For the moment I expect this is working as intended because we're in the equivalent of Wrath's T4 -- but it does have an effect on Druid tank desirability in dungeons with heavy AoE damage. Torson of Malygos characterizes it as a sort of healer Spell Lock -- "where nearly every available second is spent actively feeding you health" -- rather than being able to devote attention to other group members or CC.
Mob scaling and numbers
We're not seeing Shattered Halls-style mob packs for the most park, but the vast majority of Wrath dungeon pulls are at least 3 mobs, and they mean business. Moreover, in many dungeons (more on this below), pulls are set up in such a way as disadvantage the Druids' ability to position them correctly.
Player behavior
This is a version of the old joke concerning how much money you owe your bank. When one or two DPS won't control their threat, it's their problem. When all DPS won't control their threat -- or, worse, when they don't have to control their threat with a Warrior, Death Knight, or Paladin tank -- it's the Druid's problem.
Druid Spec
It's entirely possible that players who are having bad experiences with Druid tanks are simply running into people who are tanking on cat specs without talents like Thick Hide, Natural Reaction, or Protector of the Pack. And that's fine, because that means the Druid isn't really meant to be a tank, but that also means they should have the good sense not to offer to tank for heroics.
Filed under: Druid, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Expansions, Features, Classes, Buffs, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
The Observer Dec 16th 2008 8:34PM
First.
I've run dozens and dozens of heroics and I haven't seen a single druid tank. No big bear butts in sight. =/
TwinHits Dec 16th 2008 8:45PM
I'm a bear tank and I've had little trouble with AoE pulling and controlling them all. Sure you have to pay a little more attention and move around more, but overall I haven't had much trouble.
I think that towards the end of BC that too much emphasis was put on the importance of stamina, especially with the (then) ridiculus amounts of health a badge geared feral druid could get. In WotLK, people are gearing up for stamina and forgetting dodge.
The healer scaling part of this article was interesting, that is something I'm going to pay more attention to.
FireStar Dec 17th 2008 9:35AM
I'm a northrend dungeon hero and all that jazz, doing 10 and 25 mans as normally the top healer. I have yet to see a single feral druid. All the druids i know are balance/resto.
Nia Dec 16th 2008 8:46PM
Our main tank in our guild is a Feral Druid. And he is the best tank i've ever grouped with. He has no problems holding aggro, and he's never had one complaint about his tanking skills. In fact, other guild tanks often ask his advice on how to be an effective tank.
Quite frankly, i have a lot of trouble running dungeons with other guild tanks, because they just don't seem to do as good a job. =)
Cyanea Dec 17th 2008 3:42AM
Our Guild also has an amazing beartank. She has asked us quite frequently in the past to go "all out" on some pulls to test herself, and she's never had a problem maintaining aggro. Every once in a while one of us will pull something away, but she'll pick it right back up.
How about you give Druids an AoE tanking move? Call it...I dunno..."Nature's Fury" or something like that, and make it work like Consecration.
Morcego Dec 17th 2008 9:48AM
I have to second that. The top tank on our guild is a bear. No problem maintaining aggro on heroics (and we have some heavy dpsers there). He is also the tank that can take Maly with the least trouble for the healers. Our other thanks are paladins and warrior. I actually never ran with a DK tank.
Sean Forsgren Dec 16th 2008 8:48PM
Off topic, but that picture may be the best picture ever used on this website. I rofl'd irl
reroll Dec 16th 2008 9:04PM
I totally agree with this. I tanked with my feral druid all through BC and it was great. Things were difficult at times when I first started, but I learned to cope with the disadvantages of being a bear tank.
After wotlk was released and I tanked a couple of the new heroics on my druid, I decided I was done. I rerolled a DK and can't believe how much easier tanking is at 80. Deathgrip combined with real aoe tanking makes things a cinch. I had no idea how bad druid tanking really was until then. I don't think this is something that's really fixable without changing the core class mechanics of druids, but I can tell you that the grass certainly is greener.
Hevnlyst Dec 16th 2008 9:09PM
As a disc priest, I really enjoy healing bear druids, because of the way my heals work and the synergy they have with the talent rapture. The more effective my heals are, the more mana I get back. Hopefully this buff will make for more feral druids, specifically the tanking kind.
Plus fairly geared druids in epics are hitting 50k health raid buffed, which honestly, makes them fine in my opinion. The extra damage they take isn't very bad when they have such a health buffer.
metallikop Dec 23rd 2008 11:57AM
50k is an impressive number but I can tell you with much confidence that this druid is probably stacking the wrong gems/enchants. Druids don't take more damage thanks to SoTF, high armor, barkskin. I, personally, stack agility to help mitigate all damage possible. I'm sure if I threw in +24 stam gems I could get close to 50k raid buffed but that's not the point of druid tanks. Our health pools are very large but it's the armor and dodge that make us effective tanks.
As to feral tanks overall, I find that I have absolutely no problem with threat at all. I was tanking heroics about 2 hours after I hit 80 and I still to this day have not had a problem once with 1 pulls and 6 pulls. The swipe threat increase is a joke, and unnecessary for good bears. I've MTed Naxx 10 and OTed Naxx 25 and I can't say that I've let anyone die due to threat issues besides an overzealous Warlock or Mage every now and again. Feral is not the easiest tank class to play, but by all means, it's not hard.
Stormsinger Dec 16th 2008 9:14PM
Also a bear tank and I've had almost no problem with AOE tanking (except the obvious, large caster groups). Yeah, it's a little challenging, but that's part of the fun right?
VH has never been a problem for me. Occulus is a pain in the ass on the little dragons, but they don't hit hard and I can run around and mangle, swipe, maul and ranged taunt is I need to. Chaotic, but hardly a barrier. Etc. Takes some effort but doable.
Of the ones you list (that I've done (no OS yet)), the only one I do dread is AN heroic. It just kicks my ass. Tight confines, limited CC (bad luck in pug make up), de-aggroing mobs... Don't think that's a druid problem, just a pain in the butt fight.
I have yet to have any complaints from even pugs about my tanking in heroics (and I'll often ask, "how's this working for you guys?"). Some fights are more challenging, but wasn't the complaint that druid tanking was boring?
As for healers.. that I need to ask around about. Always try to make things easy on my healers.
Daniel Dec 16th 2008 9:15PM
"Part of it is just that the people who play Druids on staff here at WoW Insider are usually feral, and part of it is that -- at least as of the last numbers we had on it -- most people playing Druids are also feral."
When you start a post with that type of silly comment its hard to feel very sorry for your QQ. I don't have the entire WoW picture, I'm not sure that anyone outside of Bliz does or can despite all the various censuses. Personally, I have always played Balance and never spent one gold on a respec. I don't know what it is like to tank bear but this is what I do know:
Most of the QQ regarding class specs is based upon the fact that most groups want to go 20 minutes and out. Because of this, many guilds try and find the best combination of classes that allow them to achieve this goal. I'm not being critical of that mindset because there are certain people who like playing the game that way. But I just see that mindset as filtering out into the game as a whole and I find that unfortunate. The comment your guild made shouldn't have made you go "ouch"; it certainly wouldn't have made me go ouch. Adapting to other players strengths and weaknesses is part of what WoW is about and IMHO one of the real strength of PUGs. With a PUG of strangers its either adapt or die.
Based upon everything your wrote, there is nothing that persuades me bear tanks are objectively weak. They may be weak for the 20 minutes and out style of play, but my response to that is change your play style. If you have real reasons that you can't change your play style, then move on to a different class.
I get annoyed when I see Blizz changing class mechanics just to please a small but very loud group of QQ who don't like the way a change has impacted on the way they like to play the class. Get over yourself already.
Khon Dec 16th 2008 11:24PM
@Daniel.
No, what Allison said was, "Do I think Druids are bad tanks? No. I think we're excellent tanks."
She never claimed that "bear tanks are objectively weak".
Learn to read and comprehend, please. And lol at your QQ about QQ.
Ryan Dec 17th 2008 11:37AM
"Personally, I have always played Balance and never spent one gold on a respec."
So you don't know what you're talking about, but want us to listen to your input regardless? Go away bad.
Sigh Dec 17th 2008 6:06PM
Sorry but you are not a very good player or your group is VERY bad. Tanked all heroics in Wrath easily as a bear. My main spec is resto and my main group I run with has a bear for tank. ZERO, nil, nada, zilch issues in healing him. And no we are in ordinary gear nothing crazy, geared up levelling to 80.
I am afraid to say that this type of article is inflammatory and basically gives bad players an excuse to blame something other than themselves.
The problem is you are asking the wrong questions. The question (yes there is only one that needs to be asked) you need to ask is this, Is it the class or me? The true answer in this case is YOU. It is not the class
Now don't get me wrong, I am not lol'ing at my l33tness over you or any teenage crap like that but seriously you have to spec right for a tank, get appropriate gear (which by the way dungeon blues and the lvl 78 crafted stuff suffices to start with) enchant it right and then read the tooltips on a few abilities and get your group to act as a team.
The few dungeons you desribed are tricky like the trash in Nerub but really the tank doesn't have to tank the lot. You have DPS for a reason and I am hoping your healer can heal more than 1 target. Holding AOE aggro as a bear is insanely easy and the threat/damage they put out is crazy. Use the tools at your diposal and YOU will be fine. READ THE TOOLTIPS.
Even with the nerfs bear tanking has never had it better and from a very experenced resto's point of view I will heal a bear any day of the week and twice on Sundays. The bears are hard to heal comment is WRONG, so wrong you should hang your head in shame.
Posts like this are dangerous FUD for people not fully experienced in the game. You as a writer should show more sense and restraint than to merely say "wow i had trouble tanking so the class sux". To semi quote a quality wow site you really cannot sit there and say my palli friend sux at wow but he can tank great, I suck at wow but can't as a bear, this is unbalanced - for equal levels of personal suck we should perform equally.
It doesn't work like that. And you know it or should. If you don't you have no right in writing articles about class mechanics or perceived issues.
For all aspiring bears out there this article is wrong. Bear tanks are as good as any 5 man tank in the game. Go play your fuzzy with pride. Any healer with half a brain will be happy to stand behing that big butt with the knowlede that everything will be OK.
Drudown Dec 16th 2008 10:10PM
I was a bear tank for a long time, through BC, and up until my first few Wotlk instance runs. I changed up my spec to balance because I simply couldnt fit that roll of "20 minutes and out" in an instance run, as a bear tank. Sure, I can tank just fine, and even hold 4 mobs at a time, but I believe that the over abundance of AoE type DPS and Tanking has taken the "challenge" out of instance runs nowadays.
I prefer to play a tank in a group where you CC a mob or two, and Focus-Fire them down. This new age of AoE everything is another example of "dumbing-down" the game. It requires ZERO SKILL compared the way things used to be.
I miss those days. Fast action, teamwork, focus fire, cc, timing... all takes skill. This new AoE junk is for the birds.
Gareth Dec 17th 2008 4:40AM
Can't agree more, I've found my first dungeon now where just aoeing everything hasn't worked (Old Kingdom), and that is only because of caster mobs that cannot be pulled (if I was a death knight tank it would be another lol run).
It actually hit me as a shock, the pug was bad anyway although my tanking that day didn't help (it was effectively over when the healer decided to afk and announce this just as I was pulling a group.... that is one pug I want to forget). But apart from that one where the casters seemed to be able to fire through (or over) walls the rest of it is ez mode.
I'm plodding onto 80 here, but unless if all feels more challenging and involving at 80 I can't see myself finding enough to do to warrant the subscription.
althalas Dec 16th 2008 10:28PM
My problem was not really AOE tanking, though it is a challenge. My problem is that I have a lot of warriors in my guild who have leveled as protection. I was main tank as I was 80 and the warrior I was helping in Gundrak was 75.
He was pulling aggro on me. It got so bad, I just let him tank.
Thunderclap and Shockwave seem to put out far more threat then I can. It's a bad day when a 75 warrior can pull aggro on an epic geared level 80 tank. That should not happen. I hope this change helps with that.
Gareth Dec 17th 2008 4:40AM
That sounds bad, as a 77 warrior I had a bad run last weekend where there was a 75 warrior in that who was spec'd protection and wanted to tank too.
The problem there was he was happy to pull aggro, he wanted to tank, but if mobs were spread out all over the place due to it then he was also happy to leave the mess up to me :(
Tanking is very twitchy I find, if a DPS pulls aggro I find it often causes loss of aggro on multiple mobs since I lose time to maintain it on others while I chase it down. People just don't seem to understand that though, and especially then fail to adapt to the situation by stopping DPS and/or repositioning themselves, hence its always the tanks fault...
Ryan Dec 17th 2008 11:45AM
Either you're really bad, or your guildmate was dpsing in defensive stance in dps gear.