Encrypted Text: Words from the wise
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, an interview with acclaimed Rogue theorycrafter Vulajin. If you have ever been to the Rogue section of the Elitist Jerks forums, chances are good that you've read one of the amazing posts by Vulajin of Mal'Ganis. His Roguecraft spreadsheet and Rogue PvE DPS discussion thread are amongst my most treasured resources. Still very active in the community, he's been involved in some of the recent work concerning boss crit depression and a possible change in a Rogue's chance to miss.
I had an opportunity this week to sit down with the very intelligent and self-effacing Vulajin and talk about a few different topics, and I wanted to share some of that discourse with you today. We talked a great deal about the current Rogue hotness that is Honor Among Thieves and also concerning the impact that we as players can make upon the design of WoW in the future.
Playstyles
Chase Christian: Do you believe that there will ever be more than 1 viable Rogue talent specialization? Considering the fact that Rogues are the class most associated with theorycrafting and min/maxing, do you believe that it's possible to have two specs perform equally (at the same gear level / raid level)? There are different playstyles, but considering that a Rogue only cares about maximizing damage (which not all do, but for the sake of argument) will only truly have one option in a given scenario, even if the difference is only a couple percent?
Vulajin: Mathematically, it is effectively impossible to balance two specs perfectly against one another without having all of their talents be carbon copies of one another. Practically speaking, we currently have two roughly equal specs in Mutilate (51/13/7) and Combat (7/51/13 and its variants). They are not numerically equivalent, but each has advantages in certain situations, and each brings a raid debuff. One will inevitably appear higher on the spreadsheets, but subjective considerations like fight-specific tasks, raid composition, and even loot drops tend to make the decision less mathy than it has traditionally been.
Chase Christian: Do you (personally) place any importance or value to playstyle over damage? If there were two specs, one with a very simple rotation (SnD / Rupture), and one with a very complex rotation (think HfB / SnD / Rupture / Envenom / other timed spell / other timed spell / etc), would you prefer the simple rotation or the complex rotation? Would you choose a less powerful talent spec if it meant a more enjoyable playstyle for you (and if so, how much DPS would you sacrifice)?
Vulajin: Haha, you're asking the wrong person this question, because my answer is simple: no.
If you are raiding with the intent to progress in PvE, then as a rogue, your job is to make things dead. It naturally follows that you should attempt to do the best job of making things dead that you can do. This means that you choose the optimal spec, gear yourself optimally for that spec, and perform the optimal cycle/rotation/whatever. That, to me, is fun, regardless of what spec it is: just knowing that I'm pushing myself to the limit, even such as it is in a computer game.
By way of example, I recently specced and played HAT through a Naxx 25 raid. I completely despise this spec and everything it stands for, but currently top DPS is achieved by putting multiple HAT rogues in a group together and exploiting the bug. (For those that are unaware, HAT is supposed to grant the rogue one combo point each time a member of his party crits an ability or spell. Currently, the rogue gains one combo point /per HAT rogue in his group/ each time a member of his party crits an ability or spell - so three HAT rogues means each one gets three combo points per ability crit by the group.)
Honor Among Thieves
Chase Christian: What is it about the HAT spec and playstyle that specifically turns you off? For me, it's the shying away from combo point generation and energy regeneration and the focus solely spamming damage spells that keeps me spec'd into Mutilate.
Vulajin: A guildmate of mine joked that the reason I hate HAT is that I can't model it in my spreadsheet - which might be at least a little bit true. Really, though, the primary problem I have with HAT is that your DPS is entirely determined by the luck of the draw - do your group members crit their abilities often? If so, great; if not, get owned. It's not even luck you can control, as with Combat Potency, because it depends on your group members' gear, ability usage patterns, and of course, their ability not to die. A HAT cycle can vary to ridiculous extent because you can go for five seconds without anybody in your group critting a single ability, then suddenly gain five combo points in one second because everybody got a crit. It effectively makes playing the spec a constant guessing game.
Player feedback vs game design
Chase Christian: Do you feel that Blizzard has already figured out all of the key aspects of our class on their own and planned for the specs we are seeing today (HAT, etc) or do you feel that the Rogue community figures out what works and what doesn't and then the developers act on that? How important do you feel your contributions are to Blizzard's development process?
Vulajin: As far as my role in that process, I'll be blunt: I'm just some guy on the Internet who punches numbers on a calculator and makes really long-winded posts on the forums occasionally to argue something that I think needs to be argued. Generally I know how to add and subtract and multiply the numbers to arrive at reasonably correct conclusions, but in the end anything I know about the game is second-hand knowledge (provided by in-game tooltips or Wowhead spell data) and reverse-engineered mechanics (in other words, "guessed"). Although the community has done an extraordinary job of figuring out the mechanics of this game, I wouldn't even begin to suggest that I know any more than Blizzard does about their own product.
Chase Christian: Do you feel that Blizzard actually implements player suggestions and feedback? Do you prefer your role as player and "stress tester"; or if offered, would you prefer to be behind the scenes designing the internal components?
Vulajin: In all seriousness, I do think players make contributions at both ends of the spectrum. Many changes are not matters of exact balance, but matters of opinion. As a result, by making persuasive arguments, players have gotten changes implemented. For example, I'd like to think my passionate posts arguing for the removal of positional requirements on abilities helped get Mutilate changed in beta. And I'm also about 90% certain that input from the community primarily led to the removal of the cooldown on Fan of Knives (coming in patch 3.0.8). Frankly, having some inside knowledge of the industry, I would say that I prefer being on the outside [when it comes to design]. Being on the outside enables you to work with the entire community, to figure things out for yourself, and to participate in the constant process of evolution that is the MMO experience.
In closing
Chase Christian: One last question. If you could take one talent/spell from another class, what would you take (for Rogues, not you personally)?
Vulajin: I choose Blink. Note that if I had my way, Blink would work properly 100% of the time, and we would get this 100% working version. The first reaction to this suggestion is probably, "we already have that, it's called Shadowstep." Yes, but Shadowstep doesn't break roots, doesn't break stuns, and has a 30 second cooldown. In addition, Shadowstep requires a hostile target. Blink does break roots and stuns (though it doesn't break snares), has a 15 second cooldown, and requires no target.
Blink would give rogues an on-demand movement tool that could be useful not only in getting to a target quickly, but also in getting away from a target quickly. In PvE, it would reduce the impact for Mutilate specs not having Camouflage, and for all specs not having Fleet Footed. And of course, whenever you happen to just be running around unmounted, Blink enables you to cut your travel time by a substantial amount.
Now good luck convincing Blizzard to give it to us. :)
--
I want to thank Vulajin for his time and answers. For those Rogues looking for more information about his work, check out his stickies at the EJ forums. While you're there, check out some of the other great posts regarding the State of the Rogue in WotLK.
Filed under: Rogue, Raiding, Classes, Talents, Interviews, (Rogue) Encrypted Text, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Tim gibson Dec 17th 2008 11:17AM
what is a HAT spec?
I feel like a noob asking this because my main is a rogue and i don't know what that means.
Tymora Dec 17th 2008 11:26AM
Honor Among Thieves, talent in sub that gives you a combo point whenever a party member crits
Waryor Dec 17th 2008 11:24AM
A talent build that includes the talent Honor Among Thieves.
Mindreaver Dec 17th 2008 11:28AM
Honor Among Thieves.
talkingmike Dec 17th 2008 12:42PM
HAT has also been bugged recently, where if multiple rogues are present in the party, you will receive a combo point for each rogue (instead of only 1 combo point as seemingly designed) when HAT triggers.
Lemons Dec 17th 2008 2:07PM
I like how he says "then suddenly gain five combo points in one second because everybody got a crit" because HAT's tooltip specifically says it cannot happen more than once in a second :S
Driphter Dec 17th 2008 4:33PM
The 1 sec cd is per player in your group. If 1 warrior crits twice in a second you get 1 cp. If 2 warriors crit once in a second, you get 2 cp.
~Driphter
Stealthy Dec 17th 2008 4:38PM
@ Lemons:
"HAT's tooltip specifically says it cannot happen more than once in a second"
That is per party member. So you can get up to five combo points instantly even without any other rogues in your party (if each party member gets a crit as well as yourself).
The HaT bug just gives you even more combo points per rogue.
aurorallew Dec 17th 2008 11:30AM
I look forward to interviews in the future with minipet collectors and people who run heroic 5-mans.
I won't hold my breath.
Grubba Dec 17th 2008 12:21PM
Because those would be interesting interviews from people who have an impact on the game, right?
Hoggersbud Dec 17th 2008 1:20PM
Already done:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/08/19/15-minutes-of-fame-a-man-and-his-80-pets/
Enjoy.
sickbox Dec 17th 2008 11:53PM
This thread is now about being dissapointed in this installment of Encrypted Text.
I enjoyed the interview, don't get me wrong. However, I think it should have just been an interview with Vulajin about theorycrafting and not replace the information filled goodness that is Encrypted Text. I kind of missed the awesome writing style where it seems that Christian is trying to rally rogues each week and send us out with some information to better ourselves as players. I've especially been enjoying how he explores the content of Wrath and shares what he thinks would be most important to a rogue.
That's just my two cents. Guess I'll have to wait for next week for some more delicious infos. D:
Arkeband Dec 17th 2008 11:35AM
It's a spec that specs only up to Honor among Thieves in Sub tree, and you just spam Eviscerate every GCD. It's retarded beyond belief, and the fact that guilds are using it to get ahead in Naxx is shameful.
Worcester Dec 17th 2008 2:34PM
@Aetropos
I'm not sure what kind of Rogue you play, but there are a few things wrong with your post.
First, Rogues cannot wait until after a pull to stun (Sap) a mob as the mob has to be out of combat. Nothing gets me more irritated than when a group wants a Sap, but doesn't wait for it.
Second, you should also be aware that Honor Among Thieves is one of the few skills that is only part-wide, not raid-wide. To say that it isn't viable in 5 man raids is untrue. It works just as well. You get no benefit from the other 20 people in a raid when using HAT. You might be able to say it works a bit better if you mean that you have more options for your group makeup. That is all.
@Quiz
Not all Rogues are PvP oriented. Some of us rolled the class because we like to solo most content... we like to stealth... and we like to avoid fighting every single mob we come across.
Aetropos Dec 17th 2008 3:10PM
@Worcester
Hmm, reading back, I realize my wording in my previous post may not have been that clear. By stunning the target during/after the pull, I was not referring to sap, but our many other stuns, such as cheap shot and kidney shot. We seem to be in agreement on the sap issue. Nothing is more irritating then the group thinking sap works the same as sheep-ing something and then getting mad when we cannot sap while in combat.
I will definitely continue grouping with HAT rogues and I fully plan to try the spec again, but my initial impression was just that my DPS took a nose dive compared to my previous mutilate spec. While using the HAT spec, yes it's only group wide, but the group is only 5 people and that's part of the problem. There are many fewer buffs on the group (and the HAT rogue) then compared to a 25-man or even a 10-man. With the additional buffs, the HAT rogue's AP goes up, as does his or her crit, and the same is true for everyone else in the group. More crits, more combo points and less waiting around for the combo points to build or using energy. (I retract my previous argument on 10-mans, HAT would be great DPS there for the reasons you stated)
If I have anything wrong above, by all means, please correct me. I guess I just felt a little under wow'ed with the spec at the moment in 5-mans.
Quiz Dec 17th 2008 11:57AM
Rogues like these two guys are rarer than you might think. There remain a large percentage of rogues are strictly pvp mentality players who struggle in pve situations and put more strain on the healers than they are worth.
The suggestion that they need a blink mechanic is beyond ridiculous as they already have Vanish and CoS and Sprint.
I love a good rogue and would absolutely take one to a raid without hesitation. But they will always and forever be a pvp class first and that's the sort of players the class attracts.
Aetropos Dec 17th 2008 12:23PM
This is a sad truth. Good rogues can be hard to find, especially in PvE. I play both a tank and a PvE rogue, and only ever PvP when I need a quick gear up grade. Rogues have a lot of good raid/instance function, especially when it comes to casters. Stun-locking a caster that mana-drains the healer, even when the tank has aggro, is incredibly useful.
The thing I have seen the most is when rogues go from soloing and/or PvP-ing to raiding/PvE. It's a very different mentality and the actions used are very different (example: don’t stun a mob until the tank is finished pulling.)
Many points in the article are valid, in that a good rotation, spec and use of poisons, a rogue can be theorycrafted to be at the top of the DPS charts. The HAT spec falls apart though, outside of a 25-man raid. In my opinion, go with the mutilate or combat specs off EJ for 5-mans or 10-mans and re-spec HAT for 25-mans. That will get you great DPS (most of the time), but whether it's fun to play is up to you, the rogue. Also, the re-spec cost may deter people until duel-spec comes around.
CrimsonCrane Dec 17th 2008 12:42PM
I'm not sure I entirely agree. On a PvP server? Sure, but that's the kind of player that that kind of server attracts. However, I play a rogue and I despise how PvP is done in WoW. I decided to play the rogue because I enjoy the play style. I personally think that it's the horror stories that people spread about "this one time I ran with a really stupid rogue in a pug. boy was he dumb" and we rogues get a bad name.
I don't think one class or another attracts PvP players, I just think that we get a bad rap from people who either run into people who are bad at playing their class (which unfortunately happens) or people who have tried to do PvP either actively or to suppliment their gear and have gotten locked down/1-2 shotted by a rogue (this is especially true in the case of clothies, which our class was honestly made to kill).
Zayd Dec 17th 2008 12:08PM
That Mutilate spec you linked didn't take Master Poisoner, one of the raid buffs that made it desirable?
Chase Christian Dec 17th 2008 12:16PM
Because both Elemental Shamans and Ret Paladins have talents that do exactly the same thing (and don't stack) that they always pick up, Rogues in a raiding environment typically skip Master Poisoner. It's only useful if there are no Ele Shamans or Ret Paladins in your raid.