The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Overstacking

Or you could be fury again after tanking for over a year and you realize that your spec has points in all the wrong places and you have too much hit and not enough crit or AP on your gear. Not that I'd know what that was like. Okay, so I do. In fairness to me, it's not like I intended to be sitting at 550 hit rating and once I stopped and looked at the upgrades I've recently acquired, I realized that I'd gone overboard on hit to the detriment of crit and AP. It's true that the white hit cap for fury is somewhere around 950 hit rating but I'm easily over the 361 or so you need for specials while dual wielding. Assuming that the miss chance for special attacks is 9%, and not 8%, as I've been hearing lately - if it's 8% now, which seems fairly well tested and proved by this point, then you can shift how much hit I need with TG down the table. Once they drop the 5% penalty on specials, you can drop it even further. So while making that soft hit cap on special attacks is very important, you can do it with roughly half the hit rating I've accidentally collected. What I need now is crit and AP. Not related to any of this, but check out this post from the EJ forums and boggle at the significance of passive haste somehow adding hit.
I considered not mentioning this at all, as it's sort of embarrasing and I know there will be insulting comments about it. I mean, I get insulting comments when I accidentally post that a leather item is mail, or when I don't capitalize an "I" correctly. But it's worthwhile to see how the luck of the draw can make adjustment necessary: I didn't notice I was collecting so much hit gear until I suddenly looked at the sheet and saw myself way over what I needed. Even after throwing Massacre on my two weapons instead of the Titanium Weapon Chain and replacing some gems with Bolds, I'm at 419 hit rating, and I'll keep looking for upgrades that will increase my strength and crit rating. I suspect replacing my gloves alone will solve the problem - at present I've taken the hit enchant off of them for Crusher instead.
Over-reliance on one stat instead of properly balancing for everything you need for a role, whether through sheer happenstance (I honestly didn't intend to stack so much hit) or through a mistaken sense of the stats importance can be very damaging. It's always better to have options, of course. Especially as a tank, you'll need to work on 'sets' for specific fights. One of our tanks has a very high stamina set that still meets the 540 defense needed to keep from being critted but which sacrifices some dodge and parry for block rating and block value. He wears it for Faerlina in the 25 man version as he likes the steady mitigation of Block and the higher health pool for bad luck on an enrage. Other tanks would approach that fight differently, of course (I've not had a chance to tank it yet, but I'm working on a very high dodge set to see if it would be effective) but the point is, don't put all of your stat points in one basket. It's great that you're stepping into heroics with 540 defense already, but if you're at 18k health buffed, then you screwed up somewhere.
This is not saying that defense isn't an awesome stat: in addition to reducing incoming critical hits, it also reduces the chance you will be hit at all, it increases your block, your dodge and your parry chance. It's an awesome stat, but it can't be the only stat you ever look at. I've seen quite a few tanks rolling into heroics with 540 defense and small health pools, low AP, and pretty much no other stats on gear and then wonder why they get creamed. The reason is that defense by itself simply isn't enough. If your gear lacks in Str/AP/Block Value, you won't be generating as much threat, and if you gear lacks in dodge, parry and block rating, you'll simply take too much damage, especially if your gear also lacks in stamina. Please also consider that, for tanking heroics, you only need to reduce your chance to be critically hit against a level 82 mob, not a skull level (effectively level 83) mob. For an example, check out King Ymiron, Meathook and Anub'arak. What this means is, to tank a heroic, you need 5.4% critical hit reduction, not 5.6%. Therefore, to tank a heroic, you need roughly 135 extra defense from gear or 535 total defense, This means that you could have 667 defense rating at level 80 and tank a heroic, rather than the 690 defense rating you'd need for raiding 10 or 25 man content.
Basically, the goal here is not to hit some target number, but rather to know what that target number signifies. Why do you want 540 defense skill/690 defense rating for raids? To reduce the incoming critical hits to zero so that your healer won't have to work as hard. Well, if you can achieve that with 535 defense skill/667 defense rating for heroics, you should do so, and then instead of working for uncrittable against level 83 mobs (which you won't be tanking in a heroic) you should make sure to get more stamina, more mitigation and more avoidance via gear choices, and possibly also selecting for threat. It's a balancing act, yes, but it helps to keep in mind what you're actually trying to achieve rather than just aiming for a number. It also helps if you pay attention to how much the new gear your getting has of a specfic stat rather than being surprised by how much hit you have one day when you put all of your new set together. I'm looking at you here, Rossi. The point of all that hit is to reduce the miss rate on your specials, it's not some sort of manta you chant until the bosses die, and you need other stats like strength and critical strike rating to make the most of your damage. Not even mentioning Expertise, which is very valuable until soft-capped to get rid of those pesky dodges. (Unlike a tank, a DPS warrior only needs to worry about dodges, as you should be attacking from behind.)
Effectively, what you have to consider is that, while you could stack one stat to the exclusion of all others, and you'd still continue to get an improvement up until a ridiculously high number (in the case of hit rating) or even possibly forever (there's no upper limit on the .04% to dodge, block and parry per point of defense skill, it could keep accruing forever in theory), focusing on any stat to the exclusion of all else is not effective when you take the whole of an item's budget into account. You can get more from straight block rating, dodge rating or parry rating on selected pieces of gear than you will from just stacking defense, for instance. So make sure to try and keep your gear selection properly balanced and don't pull a Rossi, forcing you to run around re-enchanting and gemming all of your gear to make up for your short sightedness.
Next week: 10 man gear.
Filed under: Warrior, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Raiding, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
patches Dec 19th 2008 2:16PM
First!
boaz the dwarf Dec 19th 2008 2:20PM
First!
And now that i've done that, let me say congrats Mr. Rossi on another great article! As a tank as of about 4 months ago, I find myself focusing on defense to the exclusion of all else then before Wrath i got to Kara and realized i couldn't hit anything... You must be balanced in your approach. Thanks for the great reminder!
VSUReaper Dec 19th 2008 2:40PM
Back when getting ready for Kara, there was almost no hit on tanking gear until you were leaving T4 entering T5 content, unless you went out of your way to gear/gem/chant for it.
As for the comments about it being easy to stack def to the exclusion of other stats, its very easy, seeing as so much of the crafted gear either has a small amount of def and a huge HP boost, or a huge amount of def and small HP.
Looking at the ap/block part of the equation is not a HUGE issue (though still an issue) seeing as 90% of decent tanks are picking up Armed to the Teeth and I have yet to see tanking gear that doesn't have a healthy does of str on it.
On that note, in my experience, its easiest for your dodge to get inflated, followed by parry, and block is the last thing to get balanced in it seems.
Any suggestions for bringing my block up, other than to go and scrounge up the handful of items with block on it?
arrogance Dec 19th 2008 2:21PM
good article. sort of learned the same thing doing heroics in wrath.
i collected one tanking set on my warrior at level 80.. used tankspot to get the best gear i could. kept tanking and deleting outdated items till i realized that while one piece could be overall better, another can benefit in another way.
pretty stupid i deleted a lot of good tanking heroic gear.
so far i have an avoidance/hp set. 541def with 25k hp and 21% dodge. got it while levelling and deleting all the 'weaker' pieces *slaps own face several times*.
now im trying to collect a block set.
it's sorta fun but bagspace consuming. wish they'd add some sort of 'armor briefcase' or something that'll take up just one bag slot but contain all the gear for one set.
anyway.. i have no point! just enjoyed the article because it mirrors what im trying to do now.. which is create different sets to optimize encounters.
martinc Dec 19th 2008 2:50PM
Focusing on defense above all else is probably the #1 failing I see in bad tanks. Can't tell you how many heroics I've been to where the tank says, "but i have 536 defense, why do i suck?"
Keep in mind, it's quite possible to tank heroics with less than 535 defense, if the tank knows what he is doing, and the healer is aware and prepared. I'd much rather take a skill tanked under the defense minimum than some noob tank that focuses on only 1 stat, and has no clue how to tank.
Surprised it hasn't been mentioned already, but your math is a bit off. To be precise:
80 vs 82 (5.4% crit): 664.00 rating = 535 defense
80 vs 83 (5.6% crit): 688.59 rating = 540 defense
Veneretio Dec 19th 2008 8:52PM
I don't understand what you mean by a tank that goes of his way to stack Defense and ends up at 536 Defense for Heroics. That's exactly what a tank should be doing. Being under 535 Defense for heroics makes you crittable and is simply the worst gearing decision an early tank can make.
As to the benefits of Defense beyond 540, you may want to consider reading:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/12/12/how-good-is-defense/
Lucid Dec 19th 2008 2:53PM
The haste = hit thing makes a lot more sense when you consider what the basic function of each stat does; Each stat cause more hits in the same period of time. Obviously haste factors in lower than hit directly.
Assuming you do 10 damage per hit, and a base 10% miss, over 1 minute :
Player 1 lands 9/10 hits for 90 total. No gear.
Player 2 lands 10/10 hits for 100 total. With +10% hit.
Player 3 lands 9.9/11 hits for 99 total. With +10% haste.
My numbers are a bit rough, and hopefully I didn't make any glaring mistakes. The attack table may contradict this, but 'in theory' it makes sense.
Additionally, Matt, I had the exact same problem. Theres such an excessive number of tanks right now, I started working on a fury set so I could get into raids. I had worked on getting as much +hit as possible, with the same mentality of fury at 70. When I finally swaped gear and specced fury for a day, I was amazed when I found out I was somewhere in the 500 range (don't recall how much it was exactly). But then noticed I was sitting at a very uncomfortable 11% crit.
And on a final note, I was pleased when I discovered that 'on accident' I had roughly 250ish hit rating on my tank gear, which is a big change from 70 where hit was rare. Now to get back to expertise capped again is another issue.
Clint Dec 19th 2008 4:13PM
This article reminds me of a recent gear upgrade I got...
Picked up a HUGE upgrade (cloak) in 25man naxx. Went from a ~75blue to a ilvl 213 epic. I switched that real quick and continued with the run. The next boss rolls around and i die halfway into the fight. Then I checked my character shett... 539 defense.
BEWARE of gear upgrades. Just gotta pay attention.
Avatar Dec 19th 2008 4:17PM
Your comments on defense are misleading in a few ways.
Defense -is itself- an avoidance stat. Adding to defense reduces your chance to be critically hit, this is correct. However, at the same time, it also adds to your block, your parry, your dodge, AND your chance that the mob will just plumb miss you in the first place.
Complicating all of this is the effect of diminishing returns. The more of a given avoidance statistic you have, the less effect you get from adding additional rating for that statistic. And even MORE complicating is that parry has a high rate of diminishing returns, dodge has a lower rate, block has no diminishing at all, and nobody knows what "to be missed" diminishes to, just that it diminishes somehow.
Comparing point-for-point as far as item budget is concerned, a point of defense will always give you more avoidance than a point of parry. Dodge gives you a little more avoidance than defense unless you've got a whole ton of dodge (though it's close and exactly where the change-over is depends on that "to be missed" number that we can't calculate). However, if you're a warrior or paladin, you're also getting mitigation (and DPS) through additional block rating. So, at heart, it's never bad to stack defense as opposed to an avoidance stat.
You're right about the stamina, though. Your real balancing act is going to be additional stamina (and armor) versus avoidance stats versus aggro stats (and expertise is an avoidance AND an aggro stat, while block value and rating is mitigation and aggro...)
martinc Dec 19th 2008 4:58PM
Actually, precise formulas for all the stat contributions have been known for some time now. It's not a "nobody knows what happens behind the scenes" thing. Check out the detailed description of the RatingBuster addon for all the relevant formulas and charts, if you want to know about diminshing returns.
Avatar Dec 19th 2008 8:21PM
The numbers to which dodge and parry diminish are well-known and integrated with that add-on, which indeed serious tanks should not be without. But all we know about "to be missed" diminishing is that it DOES (per blue post), but not the number to which it diminishes. Nor is it included in RatingBuster.
Not that it makes that much of a difference, because you can't -stack- "to be missed" - the only source of that is defense and there's only so much of that you COULD possibly get. It only matters when trying to divine the precise point at which your diminishing dodge is eclipsed by the broad-spectrum avoidance in defense, and honestly it's not that big a difference anywhere along the line - you are just about as well-off going for defense as dodge, once you hit uncrittable.
Check out Tankspot's discussion of ratings - all the crunchy math you desire.
Oogz Dec 26th 2008 11:56AM
You make some really good points here, I can tell you now, I know what you mean with the accidental 500+ hit rating. I have no hit enchants on my fury warrior and I have about 512 hit rating just from my assorted blues. I'm in the process of getting some switched out with heroic crit gear but it takes a while. Sadly there isn't much TO replace until you get to raids, and even then after looking at the loot tables the only real items that dps warriors can roll on have like 75 str, 85 stam, 35 crit rating and 45 hit rating on a pair of boots! They still over-cap us on hit with not enough expertise. I was looking over some other loots to fill in what T7 and T7.5 can't get you and it's all crit and hit rating, I'm wondering where the expertise went! The most I can find is about 75 expertise rating from enchants and a trinket or two. The problem there is, why give up your hard earned Mirror of Truth with its 84 crit rating and Chance on hit for 1000 ap! I admit that things'll be better when we get the TG hit reduction removed but they still stack us with so much accidental hit rating that I wonder if it's even worth it. I mean, a good 134 some hit rating comes from my weapons (Dreadlord Blade's, 2 of them, each with 67 hit) but until I get the Colossal Skull Clad Cleaver or other assorted 10 man raid weapon its the best out there.
Chin Dec 29th 2008 6:47PM
My question is if the soft cap for hit is 361, what will it be after the patch? This is getting quite expensive re-gemming every day.