Officers' Quarters: The new loot drama
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Take a look at the stats on that trinket at the right. No, it's not the best trinket in the game (or even close) -- but what's remarkable about it is that any spec of any class could make a legitimate case for rolling on it. Add to that the fact that it's a world drop, so it could drop in any random pick-up group, and it's BOE, and you've got the perfect recipe for loot drama. The name says it all, doesn't it: Tears of Bitter Anguish. It's like Blizzard knew how much QQ this item could cause.
In this new world of spell power and combined spell/melee hit/crit stats, raid leaders have to make some tough decisions -- and not everyone is happy about it. This week's e-mail is all about the loot QQ.
Dear Scott,
I am a regular member of a fairly hardcore raiding guild, and have been working as the master looter since BC. Our guild has always has the rule that everyone gets dibs on their armor class first. For example, as a Holy pally, I can't roll on cloth gear unless no clothies want it, the theory being that its not fair seeing as clothies can't roll on plate.
While I have had no problem with this, we are running into a problem where there is very little spell mail armor, and so our shamans are feeling a little left out when leather Boomkin gear drops and the lone druid in the raid automatically gets it even though there is very little gear for themselves. As well, when mail does drop they get into arguments over whether it is Resto, Enhance, or Elemental gear, seeing as it looks almost identical.
Any suggestions?
Obviously, a DKP or similar formal loot system can sidestep a lot of these issues. You can just ignore the armor class of a drop and let players bid as they wish. A limited resource that must be earned has a way of limiting people's desire for any drops that aren't the absolute ideal item for a slot. Are guilds still using these systems?
My guild, even though it's very large, has been running mostly 10-player raids. As such, it's been easy for us to distribute loot solely by /random and some common sense.
Our priorities are a bit different than those outlined in the e-mail. It sounds like you're giving out offspec gear that could be used for a main spec just because it happens to be leather rather than mail. So I don't blame your Elemental and Resto shamans for being somewhat upset. (I do blame them for mistaking Enhancement gear for caster gear, however . . .)
Your system may be fair in a strict sense, but it's not the best system to help your progression and it's also probably pretty frustrating at times for your players.
Raid leaders have to keep the best interests of the raid in mind, which means giving out loot where it will benefit the raid's DPS, mitigation, or healing efficiency most.
Here's how my guild does it. When an item drops, first dibs goes to the players whose armor type and spec matches the gear. For example, if Sapphiron drops Helm of the Vast Legions, rogues and Feral druids would be the first classes to roll on it. If there are none in the raid or they don't want the helm, then any other physical DPS main spec, regardless of class or armor type, would have the opportunity to roll. That way, if the item is an upgrade, it will be used to boost the DPS of the raid.
If no main spec DPS class wants the drop, then it will be up for grabs to any offspecs who can equip it. Our players will often defer to the offspec whose armor class matches the item, but it's for an offspec, so we don't micromanage who can roll.
This system has worked great for us so far, but we are a relatively drama-free bunch. Still, you can justify it every time because it helps the raid improve. Common sense wins out. Likewise, you can't really justify giving Footsteps of Malygos to a Feral druid over an Elemental shaman just because it's leather. That item will rot in a bank instead of helping your raid. Loot that helps the raid results in more loot. Common sense tells you to give it to the player who will use it to kill bosses rather than the player who will use it to grind dailies.
Now, tanks and healers might not like it. After all, although it's easier than it used to be, they do have a tougher time solo questing than DPS specs do. But they also have plenty of opportunity to acquire solo gear in many other ways -- reputation, crafting, BOEs, and so on. An extra 10 DPS for your DPS main specs can mean the difference between loot and wiping. An extra 10 DPS for your Holy priest will mean he or she can get her quests done ever so slightly faster.
We all want our tanks and healers to be happy. But in the course of farming the limited raids that Northrend currently has to offer, they'll have plenty of chances to roll on loot that main specs don't need. It may take a few weeks, but eventually the players who attend raids regularly will get every drop they ever wanted and then some. And the quicker you gear up your main specs, the less time it will take every week to get those drops.
Rings, necklaces, trinkets, cloaks, and weapons don't have armor types, so those items are most likely to cause drama. Again, common sense has to come into play. Clearly an item with attack power should go to a DPS spec and an item with spell power should go to a caster. Other stats are a bit more tricky.
- If an item has hit or armor penetration, DPS main specs should get priority.
- A healing main spec should never have priority on an item with expertise or spell penetration.
- A ranged DPS class should never have priority on an item with expertise.
- If an item has mana per 5, healing main specs should get priority, unless it also has DPS-priority specs.
- If an item has extra armor or other mitigation stats, tanking main specs should get priority.
- If an item has intelligence, a mana-using class should get priority.
- Haste and crit are stats that any spec can use.
Beyond that, you can go into further detail if you wish. For example, armor penetration isn't a highly effective stat for Ret paladins because many of their attacks already bypass armor. But that type of aggressive min/maxing can overcomplicate your system, so use your own discretion there.
Making good decisions about loot that benefits the raid is the best way to avoid drama. You'll never be able to keep every player happy, but you can create a situation where arguing against the system is, almost by definition, acting selfishly.
Has anyone out there come up with a better system or solution? Tell us about it below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Siph Dec 22nd 2008 2:07PM
Except that its not a random world drop because it only drops from one mob: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43573
tar Dec 22nd 2008 2:19PM
actually, its only been recorded to drop from that mob once
wowhead isnt god, it isnt the be all and end all of all drop rates and locations
Siph Dec 22nd 2008 3:19PM
the comments are 'god' though!
Grubba Dec 22nd 2008 5:11PM
And if you don't trust the Wowhead comments, you can double check it against the WoW Armory, which also lists it as a "boss drop" from Nascent Val'kyr.
miked Dec 22nd 2008 2:19PM
Also, that trinket isn't a caster item anymore:
From the PTR patch notes: "Tears of Bitter Anguish now only works on melee critical strike."
Spazmoosifer Dec 22nd 2008 2:22PM
As far as loot systems are concerned, I am rather fond of Suicide Kings. I am part of a standing PUG that uses this system, which I see as a rather fair system (and I have yet to get any loot with the system).
It works like this: when you join the raid, you roll (in our case /roll 1000), which will establish your rank on the Suicide Kings list (i.e. higher roll puts you higher on the list). When you come to loot to roll on, you just /pst bid to the Suicide King. At this point, the person highest on the list has priority on the item (regardless of class/spec), and can bid on the item if they so choose. Basically, the item will be given to the person that is highest on the list that actually bids on the item.
However, once you win an item, you commit "suicide", and you are placed at the bottom of the list.
This system helps eliminate the QQ from people, and makes it so that someone that is doing nothing but raiding does not get all of the gear (as can happen w/ a DKP system).
The only downside to this system, is that you may go quite some time without obtaining an item if you group of raiders is constantly growing (such as with a regular PUG), because a new person may go to the top of the list, while a person that has been raiding for months lingers at the bottom.
Brannon Dec 22nd 2008 2:38PM
Originally people complained because you had explicit class drops from the old world bosses, with very little cross-class usefulness. Then there were the tokens which vastly reduced the chance of an item rotting, while still constraining it to a handful of classes. Now Blizzard has put the decision even more in the hands of the players, which sometimes causes more problems than it solves. A lot of this revolves around people not knowing what's really an upgrade for them, versus an upgrade for someone else. You don't need to know the loot for every class in every raid, but it wouldn't hurt to at least be familiar enough with the loot tables for the bosses your guild is currently working on to know what's out there for you and your fellow raiders. Something that's a 10% upgrade for you might be a great deal more useful to another class.
The decision as what armor types to bid on is fairly easy when it comes to plate or cloth, but leather and mail are a lot more iffy. If you're going to limit anyone, it seems only fair to limit everyone. However, you have to consider how useful it is to (as the example shows), to direct all leather caster gear to the druid(s) if you've got shamans than could really use it, and how you might be impacting the overall gear level of the raid as a whole.
If you did just have one druid, as was previously stated, it wouldn't be an enormous problem - after he got his best pieces, the rest would trickle down to the others. But if you had several, it would need to be an issue addressed among the players who had leather and mail wearing toons.
And since it was mentioned, I have to throw in my more-than-two cents on Suicide Kings. SK is, hands down, one of the least fair methods of handing out loot. It benefits people who show up one time and get a lucky high roll, and can screw someone who has shown up a lot but started out with a low roll, since they'll get passed over by people who show up once with a higher roll. At least with straight up /random, there's no crazy list to further skew the results.
Spaz himself even lists these reasons - it _doesn't_ benefit people who raid all the time, and people can languish at the bottom of the list. Why you'd ever want to handle gear that way, I have no idea.
Spazmoosifer Dec 22nd 2008 2:59PM
I understand where you are coming from here, and yes I understand that SK is not always the most fair system for guild raids, I did mention that this was being used for a standing PUG, where the members in the raid consistently change week-to-week.
In these kind of situations, I believe that SK can be one of the more fair systems. For instance, let's say that you have been raiding for a long time already, but your core group leaves the server, so, you join a standing PUG. Your gear is at a much higher level than the others, so you don't bid on any items for months at a time, and possibly go in spurts without raiding with them because you are getting no benefit. When the time comes that the PUG catches up with you, gear-wise, you begin raiding with them again, and come across an item that you want. Here you would likely be at the top of the list, and actually get an upgrade, when everyone else has been upgrading consistently while you got nothing.
This has been the case with myself, so I do see it as a fair system, for a PUG that is.
Now, if my guild ever gets around to actually raiding on a week-to-week basis, would I use this system? Probably not, because you have the same players over, and over again, but it does work well in PUG situations.
As a side note, my personal favorite loot distribution system is the one that is built into the game, combined with my guild's agreement on rolling. Need for Main spec, Greed for Off Spec, pass if it is neither. If something is not looted, it is fair game for disenchanting, and the shards are rolled on at the end of the instance.
loopinvariant Dec 22nd 2008 3:20PM
"Here you would likely be at the top of the list"
Can you explain this to me? Are you keeping the loot list outside the pug, for use next time?
The only good thing I can see with SK is that if i join a PUG and I know my roll is lousy, I don't need to stay with the pug. I can go do something that has a good chance of benefiting my character.
Saryel Dec 22nd 2008 3:23PM
We run SK with a fairly static group. The way we handle it was to have everyone /roll when we ran Naxx for the first time and that set the initial list. From that point on new people running with us are added to the bottom of the list. We don't purge the list so if someone runs with us they will be in the same spot they were when the raid ended if/when they join us again.
We also only 'suicide' people if it's a main spec item. If no one wants it for main spec it goes to off spec and is open for a /roll, if no one wants it as off spec it goes to DE. This is done so as not to penalize hybrids.
DavidC Dec 22nd 2008 3:45PM
SK is bad for a basic reason: Punishes Players for Bad Random Loot.
If your "top" and nothing drops for you, somebody else could get 3 or 4 items before you get 1 item. Yet, you get "reset" to the bottom ... where as you should maybe get the next item or two.
It's apply named: "Sucide" cause you really are KILLING YOURSELF if you use that system :-p
Spazmoosifer Dec 22nd 2008 4:05PM
@DavidC, the likeliness of the same person getting 3 or 4 items before you even get 1 item is very low, unless you out gear the raid as a whole, because of how the list rotates when people bid on items.
Secondly, this system does not "punish" you for bad random loot any more than DKP or other loot systems, because regardless of the loot system; if it is not a good item for you, you don't roll/bid.
Also, what tends to happen w/ SK is that the gear level of the entire raid raises more quickly, while individual gear levels change slowly.
@loopinvariant, yes, the list is being kept outside of the group, similar to how DKP systems save the list. Like I said, this is a standing PUG, where many members are the same from week-to-week, but there are often new players in the group every week (in our case, we have around 10-15 static players, and an additional 10 non-static players).
@Saryel, as far as the main/off spec gear is concerned, we usually don't bid for off-spec, unless it is a sought after off-spec item. This is really determined by the raid leader.
In reality, I guess it depends on what you consider a "fair" system of looting.
Better for you VS. Better for the raid
Konchu Dec 22nd 2008 4:07PM
Yeah I could see that one being a little iffy with pugs but ok if its a steady group. Cause if I roll a one and there are several people that would want my armor I might be less likely to stick around.
Really with a Pug I think the old way we used to do old school strat is best and that was 1 blue per person(purples in some cases)unless there is an extra no one needs. And at the end spit up any BOE's/shards to those that didn't get anything.
Though anymore most people just do a need or greed approach and for the standard dungeons it does just fine. Only time it doesn't work is with a loot whore and really they get singled out pretty quick and aren't likely to get to complete much.
Hilton Dec 23rd 2008 3:21AM
Our guild used Suicide Kings in BC from Gruuls all the way to BT, overall it was a very fair system.
When we had the odd PuG or two, we put them onto the bottom part of the list. To my recollection, there was very little loot drama as a result of using SK.
porcini Dec 23rd 2008 2:56PM
The biggest problem with Suicide Kings is that it treats all loot equivalently. A weapon, or chest, should have significantly more value in a loot system, then say, a ring. SK also encourages 'DKP hording' - people are aware that they can only suicide once before they 'lose their DKP', and will camp the top of the list waiting for a specific item - this does not help you gear up your raid.
Fixed price zero sum DKP is a much better alternative to SK.
EPGP trumps both of them.
Frank Smith Dec 26th 2008 2:37PM
That is by far NOT the only downside to that loot system. For starters, a necklace that drops constantly is equal in value to the most rare sword (or any other item), and looting the former sends you into the same dark abyss from which you will not climb out of until everyone has had their "fair" shot at a next item /yack
Yeah, we tried it. It's great for small 10-man or "family style" guilds but it was a horror for our progression guild.
Brisket Dec 22nd 2008 2:24PM
What!?!?!? WoWhead isn't God?!?!?
SUPERSIZED Dec 22nd 2008 2:26PM
As a resto/ele shammie there are issues with this for our class. As pretty much every piece of mail in the game can be used by both classes mp5 or no.
And i think you missed the main point of the post as well. I think he is talking about a larger issue. do a quick search for level 80 mail caster gear with plus hit on it......you will only find three results and all 3 are tier 7 pieces so your ele shammies are trying to get another 180(if they have a boomkin/shadow priest to run evertime with them) or 280 if they don't in hit. Now even if we gem every gem with plus hit and every enchant with plus hit we come up short. So the issue comes down to that those pieces of cloth gear look really good to us with the plus hit on them and the few pieces of leather look good as well. But most guilds and pugs won't let us even roll on them because it needs to go to clothie first even if it is an upgrade for us. not that they are giving it to a feral druid but that due to lack of hit gear or other gear that works as it should for ele shammies we want to roll against the boomkin so we can hit cap as well.
As ele is my main spec i really feel like blizz hates us due to all the lack of hit gear and the nerfing of our hit tallents. now if we still had our 9% talented bonus hit then i would understand only 3 pieces having hit raiting on it but now we are down to a 3%.
knid Dec 22nd 2008 3:01PM
Supersized is right wrt to the elemental dilema. If you are going to gear up these players, you are going to have to allow these shamans to roll as equally as the clothies. It's unfortunate that mail spellcaster armor is horrible in the +hit itemization. If an elemental shaman gears up, there is no mail +hit until you get to T7 loot. After that, there are only a few items that would help. Effecitvely, every gem and enchant slot you have is required to be used for +hit rather than something else.
Anyway, the guild leader will need to revise these loot rolls and count Elemental Shammys as "clothies/leather wearers". Until Blizzard changes the current loot/new loot/talents, ele shammys will need to dip into this area.
Spazmoosifer Dec 22nd 2008 3:03PM
That is actually one of the reasons that I like the Suicide Kings distribution system. You can bid on any item you want, regardless of the class/spec, so it is determined randomly (with a pre-cast roll) and people don't QQ as much (from my experience).