Officers' Quarters: The new loot drama
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Take a look at the stats on that trinket at the right. No, it's not the best trinket in the game (or even close) -- but what's remarkable about it is that any spec of any class could make a legitimate case for rolling on it. Add to that the fact that it's a world drop, so it could drop in any random pick-up group, and it's BOE, and you've got the perfect recipe for loot drama. The name says it all, doesn't it: Tears of Bitter Anguish. It's like Blizzard knew how much QQ this item could cause.
In this new world of spell power and combined spell/melee hit/crit stats, raid leaders have to make some tough decisions -- and not everyone is happy about it. This week's e-mail is all about the loot QQ.
Dear Scott,
I am a regular member of a fairly hardcore raiding guild, and have been working as the master looter since BC. Our guild has always has the rule that everyone gets dibs on their armor class first. For example, as a Holy pally, I can't roll on cloth gear unless no clothies want it, the theory being that its not fair seeing as clothies can't roll on plate.
While I have had no problem with this, we are running into a problem where there is very little spell mail armor, and so our shamans are feeling a little left out when leather Boomkin gear drops and the lone druid in the raid automatically gets it even though there is very little gear for themselves. As well, when mail does drop they get into arguments over whether it is Resto, Enhance, or Elemental gear, seeing as it looks almost identical.
Any suggestions?
Obviously, a DKP or similar formal loot system can sidestep a lot of these issues. You can just ignore the armor class of a drop and let players bid as they wish. A limited resource that must be earned has a way of limiting people's desire for any drops that aren't the absolute ideal item for a slot. Are guilds still using these systems?
My guild, even though it's very large, has been running mostly 10-player raids. As such, it's been easy for us to distribute loot solely by /random and some common sense.
Our priorities are a bit different than those outlined in the e-mail. It sounds like you're giving out offspec gear that could be used for a main spec just because it happens to be leather rather than mail. So I don't blame your Elemental and Resto shamans for being somewhat upset. (I do blame them for mistaking Enhancement gear for caster gear, however . . .)
Your system may be fair in a strict sense, but it's not the best system to help your progression and it's also probably pretty frustrating at times for your players.
Raid leaders have to keep the best interests of the raid in mind, which means giving out loot where it will benefit the raid's DPS, mitigation, or healing efficiency most.
Here's how my guild does it. When an item drops, first dibs goes to the players whose armor type and spec matches the gear. For example, if Sapphiron drops Helm of the Vast Legions, rogues and Feral druids would be the first classes to roll on it. If there are none in the raid or they don't want the helm, then any other physical DPS main spec, regardless of class or armor type, would have the opportunity to roll. That way, if the item is an upgrade, it will be used to boost the DPS of the raid.
If no main spec DPS class wants the drop, then it will be up for grabs to any offspecs who can equip it. Our players will often defer to the offspec whose armor class matches the item, but it's for an offspec, so we don't micromanage who can roll.
This system has worked great for us so far, but we are a relatively drama-free bunch. Still, you can justify it every time because it helps the raid improve. Common sense wins out. Likewise, you can't really justify giving Footsteps of Malygos to a Feral druid over an Elemental shaman just because it's leather. That item will rot in a bank instead of helping your raid. Loot that helps the raid results in more loot. Common sense tells you to give it to the player who will use it to kill bosses rather than the player who will use it to grind dailies.
Now, tanks and healers might not like it. After all, although it's easier than it used to be, they do have a tougher time solo questing than DPS specs do. But they also have plenty of opportunity to acquire solo gear in many other ways -- reputation, crafting, BOEs, and so on. An extra 10 DPS for your DPS main specs can mean the difference between loot and wiping. An extra 10 DPS for your Holy priest will mean he or she can get her quests done ever so slightly faster.
We all want our tanks and healers to be happy. But in the course of farming the limited raids that Northrend currently has to offer, they'll have plenty of chances to roll on loot that main specs don't need. It may take a few weeks, but eventually the players who attend raids regularly will get every drop they ever wanted and then some. And the quicker you gear up your main specs, the less time it will take every week to get those drops.
Rings, necklaces, trinkets, cloaks, and weapons don't have armor types, so those items are most likely to cause drama. Again, common sense has to come into play. Clearly an item with attack power should go to a DPS spec and an item with spell power should go to a caster. Other stats are a bit more tricky.
- If an item has hit or armor penetration, DPS main specs should get priority.
- A healing main spec should never have priority on an item with expertise or spell penetration.
- A ranged DPS class should never have priority on an item with expertise.
- If an item has mana per 5, healing main specs should get priority, unless it also has DPS-priority specs.
- If an item has extra armor or other mitigation stats, tanking main specs should get priority.
- If an item has intelligence, a mana-using class should get priority.
- Haste and crit are stats that any spec can use.
Beyond that, you can go into further detail if you wish. For example, armor penetration isn't a highly effective stat for Ret paladins because many of their attacks already bypass armor. But that type of aggressive min/maxing can overcomplicate your system, so use your own discretion there.
Making good decisions about loot that benefits the raid is the best way to avoid drama. You'll never be able to keep every player happy, but you can create a situation where arguing against the system is, almost by definition, acting selfishly.
Has anyone out there come up with a better system or solution? Tell us about it below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Dave Dec 22nd 2008 11:13PM
http://www.wow-loot.com/ is what our guild uses for loot distribution (with dkp). That way everyone knows the specs who get priority on an item.
Benedikta Dec 22nd 2008 11:38PM
Using wow-loot:
Torch of Holy Fire (Mace)-
Primary: Holy Paladin, Resto Shaman, Resto Druid, Holy Priest
Secondary: Elemental Shaman, Balance Druid, Shadow Priest
The Turning Tide (Sword)-
Primary: Holy Paladin, Mage, Warlock
What's wrong with this picture?
- Holy Paladin is primary for two items? Wow. They also have very similar stats, with The Turning Tide being arguable better for the Holy Paladin for the crit rating instead of the MP5 on Torch of Holy Fire.
- All the DPS classes listed as secondary on Torch of Holy Fire are being screwed out of a best in slot item because it has 15 MP5 on it.
This is only one example of how using that as your Bible is a bad idea. Having raid members that research their classes, sending them to sites like ElitistJerks.com, ShadowPriest.com, WOWMB.com, etc. and making sure they are educated in their gear choices so they can make smart decisions on their own is much better.
I have had members yell at me because LootRank.com said that an item was bad for me and better for them. Blanket statements like that piss me off so much because I spend the time to research my class so that I can roll on upgrades, and hopefully, best in slot pieces.
My guild uses a free roll system, hoping that people will make good gear choices. Since we're newly formed, we're still testing the waters, but we may end up switching over to a DKP system because some of our better members are being outgeared by less deserving individuals.
Nith Dec 23rd 2008 12:21PM
mp5 is a healing buff. An item like this before 3.0.0 would have been +healing item. While I am not 100% familiar with casting classes pretty much and dps caster should not have to worry about mp5. So if a healer in your group needs the item he/she should get priority. And you need to look for gear with +hit/+haste/+crit not mp5. Holy Paladins are better off with crit than mp5 as mana should not be an issue as long as you have a pretty big mana pool.
Having said that, if no healers need it but spell dpser will get an upgrade from this then they should get it.
Same for melee gear, there are slight variations to stats which are better for some or for others. E.g. ret pallys scale the best from str and crit items with these two maxed out are the best and should go to them. While dks might be looking at gear with +stam and +ap.
Stuart Dec 23rd 2008 8:34PM
Are you kidding me?
The next mace with spell power on it only has 461. How can you tell me that healers somehow get priority on a 59 spell power upgrade due to 15 mp5, which honestly isn't even all that good except for Restoration Shaman.
Dave Jan 4th 2009 8:45PM
The main reason that we use the web site I listed is to stop the stupid arguments about loot.
Everyone in the guild knows the loot rules and the site we use to give priority on items. This means that our guild has had NO loot drama ever with these silly arguments. The main class list gets called first and if noone wants the item then it goes to the secondary classes etc.
While you can always find some items that can be argued about, the majority of the items do go to the best class as a primary looter.
Hydden Dec 23rd 2008 5:06AM
Recently had a rogue in our group shocked that our Shaman healer wanted the cloth gloves which were a huge upgrade... I think he wanted the shard, and despite much discussion I don't think he was convinced in the end.
Armor is just another stat. Ideally, the healer shouldn't be getting hit anyway - they could be healing through the roof and as fragile as glass, so long as they don't get hit they're fine.
unigolyn Dec 23rd 2008 6:21AM
Should have asked the rogue to tell you, without checking, how much armor his chestpiece has.
Armor is a tanking stat, and a PvP stat. If an elite takes a swing at your healer, ~500 armor is going to make about as much difference as the color of his cloak.
unigolyn Dec 23rd 2008 6:18AM
"any spec of any class could make a legitimate case for rolling on it"
If a DK rolls on it, they're an idiot. If said DK rolls on it, and is dual-wielding, they're still an idiot, but at least not because they have no idea that haste is nearly useless for 99% of DKs.
kellzea Dec 23rd 2008 7:22AM
loot distribution is easy
a) does person x deserve loot
b) can they use it
c) is it an upgrade
easy!
if you have two people who deserve loot and need the upgrade then they /roll off.
i realy dont see how its any more complex than that
porcini Dec 23rd 2008 2:51PM
The problem is that it's subjective - better to let a system determine who deserves loot, instead of a fallible human. Loot systems require more work, but they're also fairer.
syberghost Dec 23rd 2008 11:13AM
Yeah, here's how you handle it:
People who think they Need something roll Need. People who don't need it roll Greed. If people are rolling Need too much, you ask them nicely to stop. If they don't stop, you stop playing with them because they are jackasses.
If you need it to be more complicated than that, log off and go see a movie.
Nith Dec 23rd 2008 12:05PM
We use a very simple system which keeps everyone happy;
Each char has:
Main Spec - your raiding specc (e.g. I raid as holy pally)
Current Spec - current build (e.g. Right now im ret)
Priority order:
1. Main spec and right class (e.g plate for pally)
2. Current Spec and right class
3. Main spec wrong class (mail for pally)
4. Current Spec and wrong class
5. Off specc (e.g. for me that would be prot if i am ret right now)
6. DE
7. Autosell
Always have a loot master to avoid problems.
Our priority is to gear up for raids to gear for raiding is given first. But since were a small guild cross speccing is important. As a pally I keep 3 sets of gear so that I can tank or heal or dps depending on what we need for that dungeon.
Like it was said the biggest problem is probaly people who do not know what they need. For example a healer should never be rolling on gear with +hit, even if the sp is bigger you lose out overall on gear the same level (the +hit could be haste or crit or more intell which would be much better). So explaining why they cannot get loot is a good idea, dont just assume the person is being a loot hog, maybe they just dont know why they dont need that item.
porcini Dec 23rd 2008 2:48PM
The biggest problem with Suicide Kings is that it treats all loot equivalently. A weapon, or chest, should have significantly more value in a loot system, then say, a ring. SK also encourages 'DKP hording' - people are aware that they can only suicide once before they 'lose their DKP', and will camp the top of the list waiting for a specific item - this does not help you gear up your raid.
Fixed price zero sum DKP is a much better alternative to SK.
EPGP trumps both of them.