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12-27-2008 @ 3:02PM
I'd like to see the analysis done taking into account the diminishing returns that armor provides. Until you do THAT analysis, you actually have no idea if Armor Pen is good or bad. Just seeing the amount of armor reduced is positively worthless. What you want to see is what that change in damage reduction that the mob's armor provides.Using your 13k armor example (and the formulas from WoWWiki) I came up with the mob having a base of 46% reduction against a level 80 attacker. With sunder applied, the mob reduces 37.4% of incoming physical damage.The hunter attacking the mob alone sees a 43.4% reduction (2.6% physical DPS increase as compared to the base mob) while the hunter attacking the warrior's sundered target sees a 35% reduction (or 2.4% physical DPS increase as compared to the warrior alone with no armor pen).This terrible effect you're QQing about amounts to 0.2% effectiveness that the sunder eliminates... BUT, sunder is also increasing your physical DPS as well... so while those sunders make your Armor Pen EVER SO SLIGHTLY less useful, they provide a net gainRather than getting a 2.6% physical DPS gain with your armor pen alone, you're now getting an 11% DPS gain with sunder and armor pen. In short: l2math.
12-27-2008 @ 3:17PM
You're completely ignoring a major point! What if the mob has 1,000,000 armor? I'd take armor pen any day! There's a point where armor pen becomes more potent then sunder armor. Simple math will figure that out.
You're right, but that doesn't change the fact that the value of armor penetration as an individual stat is greatly reduced in the presence of sunder or expose armor. The point is that, relative to other DPS stats like agility or AP, armor pen is a stat that becomes extremely weak in the presence of a mob debuff you should expect to see in a raid (and possibly 5-man, depending on your group) environment.The fault of this is not because of the lich king transformation of it from being a static value to a percentage-based rating, but because of the way it interacts with sunder and expose. If it calculated its reduction on the target's base armor rather than its current armor, it would be a lot less retarded, but in its current state, it's the weakest DPS state for just about every physical DPS class in the game.
12-27-2008 @ 3:23PM
Grubba, I don't think you understand how armor and damage reduction works.A mob with for a mob with 13,000 armor, sunder only reduces the effectiveness of armor penetration by TWO TENTHS of a PERCENT (0.002). In other words, if you were doing 3000 DPS, sunder armor is now robbing you of 6 dps. QQ moar.Further, this change in effectiveness is greatest at low armor levels (when armor is hardly the limiting factor) and reaches equilibrium somewhere between 15k and 20k, at which point, sunder armor actually ENHANCES the value of Armor Penetration.To wit, armor penetration has a -0.08% CiE at 15k armor, but a +0.03% increase at 20k armor.BRK is usually all on top of the theory crafting, but he completely bombed this one.
12-27-2008 @ 3:28PM
PS: the above numbers based on 10% armor penetration. Chart is probably different for different values there.Executive, bottom line summary: sunder doesn't really hurt armor penetration in any significant way because of how armor provides diminishing returns.
12-27-2008 @ 3:36PM
You missed the point. Redo the DPS increase based on Sunder Armor plus plus an additional 154 points of crit rating rather than the 154 points of Armor Piercing.The point of the article was pointing out that armor piercing is a weak choice for hunters compared to crit, and due to the mechanics, becomes even weaker in a raid situation. That's true. Armor Piercing is a novelty in solo play, but has very little play in raids.
12-27-2008 @ 3:40PM
I didn't miss the point at all. I'm not arguing that Penetration > Crit, I'm saying that if penetration sucks it sucks on its own merits and that has absolutely zero to do with the presence or absence of sunder armor.In fact, against high-armor targets, sunder actually HELPS.
12-27-2008 @ 3:41PM
You seem to have forgotten that the point of the article, which is that the DPS gain from sunder+crit is better than sunder+arp. Your entire post basically says "sunder and arp together are still a buff" which was never in question.This combined with your pithy little closing "l2math" makes you look like a tool. You understand that, right?
12-27-2008 @ 3:50PM
If "sunder + arp together is still a buff" is the point you took away, you need to read it again, because that's not the point at all.The point is this: the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of ARP has nothing to do with sunder armor.BRK spent several hundred words explaining that sunder made ARP worse, which is not really the case at all.
12-27-2008 @ 5:26PM
Mensrea is completely right here (and not just because he has a guilty mind... and if you don't get that joke, l2latin).The post focused on the armour reduction provided by ArP, which is of no use whatsoever. What is important is the increase or decrease in DPS.Nobody is actually arguing that ArP > Crit, 'cause we all know it's not. What Mensrea is pointing out is that armour reduction is completely meaningless unless looked diminishing returns are factored in, thereby giving the actual effectiveness of ArP.Until you do that, showing how much armour ArP ignores is completely pointless.
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