Officers' Quarters: Waiting at 80
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 29th 2008 at 7:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Lately I've gotten a lot of e-mail from readers with a similar theme. People ask me, "Should I stick with my guild even though we aren't raiding yet?" They say, "We just lost five members because we haven't cleared Naxx." They tell me, "I hate PUGs, but I can't even run a Heroic with my guild because only two people are 80."
They ask me to weigh their guild against their desire to run group content. And the fact of the matter is this: I can't answer that question for you. And I'll tell you why.
I can't answer because I don't know how much your guild means to you. I've seen plenty of players come and go from my guild. Some don't regret leaving. We weren't able to run all the raids in The Burning Crusade. My guild skews casual and we just couldn't get a dedicated team of 25 people to make the necessary progress into Tier 6. So some players left and they are happy where they wound up.
Others quit the guild and very much regretted it. They came to realize that the content they were able to see wasn't worth giving up the special type of social atmosphere that they left behind. Now, given the option to run raids with only 10 players, we can see (and have seen) all the content in Wrath. It's really been a win-win scenario for us. We can stay mostly casual and still run everything.
So it's easy for me to tell you to stay patient and wait it out. It's easy for me to say that you'll get there eventually, that Blizzard makes new content at a glacial pace, and that you'll definitely clear the first round of raids before anything else major gets patched in. Odds are that you will if your guild really wants to.
It's also easy for me to say, "Go forth and PUG." It's easy to tell you that PUGs have been more successful in this expansion than at any other time in the game's history. PUGs on my server have run Obsidian Sanctum and Naxx successfully. You just don't need that intense, guild-level coordination for most current raids. My guild doesn't even schedule Archavon runs anymore partly because it's so easy to PUG it (also because it's so difficult to schedule).
It's easy for me to say all that, because I didn't have to do it myself. However, I can imagine the frustration of being among the first in a guild to hit 80 and wanting to experience what the expansion has to offer, while having to wait week after week for your guild to catch up.
But if you're really thinking about leaving a guild just because you have to PUG some raids or Heroics for a while, I think you've got other issues with your guild. You can't treat this situation purely as a matter of seeing content. You have to ask yourself whether you really value being in your guild or not. Do you have good friends there? Do you have fun playing with your fellow guild members, regardless of what you're actually doing? Are you an important and respected member?
If you're answering yes to these questions, then I do urge you to be patient, even if it's easy for me to say. You have too much to lose if you give up on your guild now. Finish the excellent quest lines in Storm Peaks and Icecrown that you probably didn't need to ding 80. Go back and do those group quests you skipped -- and help some of your leveling members do them at the same time. Work on your reputation, take Wintergrasp Fortress, or level an alt. Play through the Death Knight starting area. Even if you don't plan to play the class, you won't regret it. There's plenty to do to enjoy the game while you wait.
If, on the other hand, you can take or leave your guild, if it just doesn't mean that much to you for whatever reason, then you might as well say good-bye. But you shouldn't leave just because you want to see Malygos. You should leave so that, hopefully, you'll find a guild worth waiting for at level 90.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Muntun Dec 29th 2008 7:07PM
so true..great article
Ryan Dec 30th 2008 8:23AM
Seriously though, if your guild hasn't cleared Naxx yet (and you've actually been trying), you should really just delete your account now.
Ilnara Dec 30th 2008 12:35PM
Instead of getting impatient and running away, you could help your lower level guildies level up.
In fact, We did this with all our guildies so far. Once they hit 79, we all try to go our and let them tag mobs then burn them down.
Now we have 5 members at 80, and are running our first heroics.
It is fair to say, we are all RL friends that see eachother most every day. So for us, it was worth the wait.
Fuseitana Dec 30th 2008 2:00PM
Ryan, are you saying that all 25 players who haven't seen all of Naxx should just delete their account - and migrate to Hello Kitty?
Everynne Dec 29th 2008 7:11PM
I completely agree that if you're considering leaving your guild because they're not up for raid content, then there's something else wrong. I recently left my own guild with the excuse that I've had no luck in PUG'ing for Naxx - where most of my gear lies. I came to the realization that I don't really enjoy being in my guild and there are only a handful of people I actually like in there. When your guild isn't really beneficial for you or you don't even like the majority of people in it, I say its time to leave. I've found a recent, laid-back raiding guild whose members are really fun to talk to.
Pustulio Dec 29th 2008 7:13PM
I was the 5th in my guild to ding 80 and tho i do get bored waiting i have found many other things to occupy me as my guild leader is an avid pvper he has drawn me into the twitch play mechanics of the arena and of course there is always wintergrasp.......
Not to mention farming the Pendulum of Doom for twinks willing to pay 8k gold for one.... so i say stick with ur IG friends or join a new guild and be the "new guy" once again
i may be first !
Jack Kelly Dec 29th 2008 7:17PM
My issue with most PUGs these days are the stupid "stats" people.
They DO realize that most people running instances are to actually IMPROVE their stats?
Wrath instances are ungodly easy. If most players cant clear one with just about any normal group, then you shouldn't be worried about "stats", you should be worried about your skill in the first place.
Forming pugs has gotten harder than they're worth.
kabuki Dec 29th 2008 10:52PM
Even though I've not hit 80 yet (just to 75) I myself have found it difficult to get good groups together for quest chains that I can't quite solo. While it's true, as a Death Knight I can solo more quests than most players, the truth remains that sometimes I just have to have help.
More often than not, I find my groups made up of one other experienced player, and three people that are total knee biters or morons. It's strange in a way, seeming as though the expansion sucked all the good players into some oblivion, leaving the rest of the noobish kids behind to scream "I pwn JOO!!!" and whine that DK's are so OP, and then complain when the OP DK dies because the tank was a moron.
Look, if we were OP, why would we die...you know what, I'll digress from that. It could easily become a rant.
Either way, when it comes to picking up a group to run nexus, or do that one 5 man quest in Griz Hills (part of that really neat Arugal chain) I can't turn to my guild since well most people went back Alliance, and turning to people I don't know...
I guess you just can't win.
anu666 Dec 30th 2008 11:28AM
I'm a stats person when it comes to PUGs (if I ever bother to tank for one). The truth is I am not going to carry a PUG though a heroic. If they are not pulling thier wieght then they never get invited back. Like most I don't want to spend an hour or more in a heroic unless that's actually how long it takes. ( though I have yet to see one since full mara, or full DM that actually takes an hour after you've been there a few times.)
If your not at the same gear level as me you are a liability, as you are a PUG I have nothing to gauge your ability other than your gear and choice for gear. Looking at your over all stats is the best way to judge gear choices quickly.
Really, it's a moot point though.
As for the post I was 3rd or 4th druid on my server to hit 80, the first in my guild, and probly in the top 50-100 players on my server. PUGing was near impossible as those that had hit 80 litterally stopped playing (or started on alts) for a few days to recover from the grind or were finnishing off the quest grind. It took another week before a healer in my guild hit 80, from then on we just stuck together and picked up the occasional pug DPS.
So first days into 80 I finnished all the quests I could get my hands on for Icecrown and Storm peaks. Considering the subject of the article recently hit 80 it's likely that will fill up alot of thier available play time, and it really is required for raiding later on. (think shoulder enchants)
After that play around with achievements. It's a great way to kill some time if your bored, grind out some of the old factions or raid alliance/horde cities for the mount. There are alot of different avenues of distraction in the game at the moment.
Then dailies dailies dailies. If your not satisfied with setting yourself up for successful raiding later on, chances are bigger concerns about your guild than the fact your not raiding at them moment. You may want to ask yourself why you are there and if your answer is anything but "I love the guild" then maybe it's not the right place for you.
Brien Dec 29th 2008 7:47PM
I think something else to keep in mind is do you want to drop your guild for such ridiculously easy content?
People are getting all impatient and up in arms about Naxx but really... its Naxx!
Its not very hard, the gear is an "upgrade" but not a huge upgrade from heroic loot by any means.
Its not just an issue of "do you want to leave your guild to see content sooner?" its "do you want to leave your guild to see content sooner that as soon as your guild gets into it is likely going to clear very quickly?"
There is not much time from first boss down to last boss down in Naxx. You will get all the gear you need soon enough, if you're going to leave behind good friends and people you enjoy playing with for loot, I think your chances for disappointment with that decision are higher in this expansion than the last because the content is just too easy.
Rob Dec 29th 2008 7:52PM
Well, yes the Wraith instances are fairly straightforward. But I wouldn't dismiss them outright. We had plenty of wipes because people didn't understand the strats. Further, some bloggers (Big Bear Butt for ex) have proclaimed how going into a dungeon with the proper gear/level makes it quite challenging. Anyway I think they are about right.
Regardless, this doesn't answer the question. The OP needs to decide what he enjoys the most. I think most guilds that have some 80s will be able to run Naxx in some form. Our guild is going to start doing it in the next week or so (well, my casual guild, my hardcore guild has been farming it since about two weeks after release). Also the wrong kind of guild will not welcome you back, so beware of that. The OP really just needs to see if the unstated or stated goals of the guild mesh with what he is wanted to do. Does he want to raid 20+ hours a week? That's a fairly hardcore commitment, find a guild that is serious about raiding. Does he want to raid maybe once a week? Find a guild. PVP? Ditto. Level alts? Ditto. There is a guild to fit all of these needs, likely not the same guild.
Lastly I completely agree with the author about leaving to see content. Don't do that. Especially now. There is so little Wraith content to see, that it doesn't make sense to jump ship to guilds where you can do all the content in a week of raiding. Leave because you dont like the guild members. Leave because you dont like the guild focus. But don't leave because you can't wait to get into Naxx.
Wait a month or so, see where they stand. It's possible the guild leaders have zero interest in seeing Naxx, in that case, find a guild which does it regularly and needs people. But content and gear gets outdated quickly. Don't destroy friendships based on pixel that you'll replace within a month or sooner.
Gimmlette Dec 29th 2008 8:00PM
Here you go again, tapping into just the issue I've had to face over this past weekend. What you didn't cover and probably shouldn't because the question was from the guild member's POV, was the GL and/or raid leader's perspective. As I have to deal with this right now in my own guild, I'll tell the questioner how I feel.
I'm not 80 yet, but probably will be by this weekend. As we're a casual guild, I put no pressure on anyone to get to 80 by 2009 or, as one of my warlocks says, by 2012. You get there when you get there. Does that mean that we'll be slow, as a guild, to experience Wrath endgame content? Yes it does. But when we get into that, we will go in with people who have enjoyed leveling at their pace. They will be excited to see what the endgame has to offer AND they will not be burned out by some mad race to a number where the XP bar disappears again.
We are always running 5-man content. My RL and I assess what old raid content would be beneficial to us or what we didn't clear before Wrath and are putting those raids together. We look at what things we still need to work on as a guild, whether it's getting people to show up on time, repaired and with their consumables or is it getting the guy who decided to take his warrior prot some tanking experience. There is always one raid a weekend to occupy people's time.
I know you're bored and you really wish you could run endgame with guild members. I have no problem with you PuGging instances when we aren't where you are level-wise. What I have a problem with is when you PuG and make yourself unavailable to the guild. If you are frequently asked to come help a 5-man and your standard response is to say, "I can't. I'm scheduled to run Naxx tonight" and we, as a guild, aren't anywhere close to Naxx, my thought is, "Why are you even here?"
I feel that your first responsibility is to the guild whose tabard you wear. My guild is not for everyone and I've lost a lot of players who don't care for the casual atmosphere. If you want more structured raiding or higher endgame content raiding, there are a lot of guilds who are doing that and I wish you well. If you like the people here, like the raids that we do and are just bored because we only have a handful of 80's, then just give us time and we'll have a bunch in a month or so. You can see who is within striking distance.
You know the schedule for raids and if we aren't raiding and you can get into a PuG, you know you have my blessing. But, if you start scheduling your own raids simply because we aren't where you are and that means you are off doing your own thing when we're raiding as a guild then you probably ought to leave and find a group you're more comfortable with.
As others have said, decide why you're in the guild and if that's reason enough to stay. If not, there are probably a great number of guilds that would love to have you.
hold up Dec 29th 2008 8:03PM
I agree with the author that this is purely situational. If your questioning whether you should stay with your guild or not you probably dont have a strong bond with them anyway.
I moved to a new guild when I hit 80 and we our currently ranked #1 on our factions side. The only guild to clear all the content. We clear Naxx & Maly 25 in about 4 hours and OS & VOA the next day. If we werent doing progression runs on the OS-3drakes we could probably have all the raiding done in one day. That leaves 6 other days to go play with your friends or do whatver else you like. Personally I like being able to farm all the "high end" content and then do casual heroics/arena/10 mans with my friends.
The one thing that did suck about my situation in particular was that we do H Naxx in 3.5hrs and then I spent 9 hours over 2 days doing N Naxx with friends.
Gaz Dec 29th 2008 8:27PM
The real problem here is a guild that gets mad at its members for leaving when they can't provide what the player is looking for. Leaving a guild doesn't mean you cease to be friends with those who stay.
The whole notion speaks of how immature many guild structures are, worrying like a jealous high school boyfriend about what its members are doing and then getting angry at them when they go a seek out a more fulfilling relationship.
I've been part of running a 3 night/3 hour a night raid guild that cleared halfway through BT pre 3.0 (3 yrs old on New Years Eve). We've had several members leave over the course of the guild to seek out more dedicated raiding schedules. We've never held it against them and as a consequence of that, have seen many of them rejoin over time. I don't want people staying in my guild because they are worried I'll get mad if they leave, I want them staying because they enjoy the atmosphere of the guild. Anything else is a recipe for drama.
Amaxe Dec 29th 2008 9:10PM
I was the first to 80 in my guild. Now we have 4 people, with a couple at 78, so we've occasionally PUG'd an 80 instance.
I've had people try to recruit me for raiding guilds if I go resto Shaman, but for me, my friends are more important than content, so I'm staying with my guild even if it means I have to wait.
Shot Dec 29th 2008 9:16PM
I've never been a raider, never having the ability to commit to any raid schedule. My online times are always changing. WotLK has been glorious for me. I'm not currently in a guild for this reason so I'll never regularly raid even now with all of the 10-man content. Tonight I joined a PUG Naxx25 which had already cleared all wings. With a few inexperienced people (myself included) we downed Sapphiron and KT with 3 attempts each. OS 10 and 25 are a walk in the park with PUGs. Heroics are fun, fast, and generally full of people with t7.5 level gear, so hardly ever a failure even if people don't always know what they're doing.
Still can't get Eye of Eternity done reliably though ;)
Kiristo Dec 29th 2008 9:29PM
My guild died right before Wrath anyway. Haven't even started looking for another yet.
sharkeater75 Dec 29th 2008 9:57PM
the noobs should have dinged 80 over a month ago.
reset dkp. and recruit good players.
next.
kick the dead weight to the curb, they'll be the same ones showing up at your naxx raids in 70 badge epics.
DeathPaladin Dec 29th 2008 10:27PM
Really? The new players should have dinged 80 almost immediately after Wrath was released?
I can't believe those people would put things like jobs or family ahead of raiding. So inconsiderate.
/eyeroll
Techwolf Dec 30th 2008 3:39PM
When TBC came out, I raced through to 70 and regret it. I rarely instanced. It was quest-quest-quest. I'm 80 now, but I did all of the instances at their level, I spent more time reading quests and enjoyed the game a lot more. I still have at least 200 more Northrend quests left and am still enjoying it. That being said, our guild barely has enough 80s to pull off a 10 man. It's a very casual, real life guild first.
This question is very timely as I filled a 10th spot in another guilds raid and afterwards, they invited me to join them. After a lot of thought, I realized I had built some great relationships with my own guild members and wasn't ready to give that up.