Transmog yourself into an Avenger!
6 blue posts to read before Diablo 3's launch
Cross-realm zones coming soon
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Waiting at 80
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 29th 2008 at 7:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Lately I've gotten a lot of e-mail from readers with a similar theme. People ask me, "Should I stick with my guild even though we aren't raiding yet?" They say, "We just lost five members because we haven't cleared Naxx." They tell me, "I hate PUGs, but I can't even run a Heroic with my guild because only two people are 80."
They ask me to weigh their guild against their desire to run group content. And the fact of the matter is this: I can't answer that question for you. And I'll tell you why.
I can't answer because I don't know how much your guild means to you. I've seen plenty of players come and go from my guild. Some don't regret leaving. We weren't able to run all the raids in The Burning Crusade. My guild skews casual and we just couldn't get a dedicated team of 25 people to make the necessary progress into Tier 6. So some players left and they are happy where they wound up.
Others quit the guild and very much regretted it. They came to realize that the content they were able to see wasn't worth giving up the special type of social atmosphere that they left behind. Now, given the option to run raids with only 10 players, we can see (and have seen) all the content in Wrath. It's really been a win-win scenario for us. We can stay mostly casual and still run everything.
So it's easy for me to tell you to stay patient and wait it out. It's easy for me to say that you'll get there eventually, that Blizzard makes new content at a glacial pace, and that you'll definitely clear the first round of raids before anything else major gets patched in. Odds are that you will if your guild really wants to.
It's also easy for me to say, "Go forth and PUG." It's easy to tell you that PUGs have been more successful in this expansion than at any other time in the game's history. PUGs on my server have run Obsidian Sanctum and Naxx successfully. You just don't need that intense, guild-level coordination for most current raids. My guild doesn't even schedule Archavon runs anymore partly because it's so easy to PUG it (also because it's so difficult to schedule).
It's easy for me to say all that, because I didn't have to do it myself. However, I can imagine the frustration of being among the first in a guild to hit 80 and wanting to experience what the expansion has to offer, while having to wait week after week for your guild to catch up.
But if you're really thinking about leaving a guild just because you have to PUG some raids or Heroics for a while, I think you've got other issues with your guild. You can't treat this situation purely as a matter of seeing content. You have to ask yourself whether you really value being in your guild or not. Do you have good friends there? Do you have fun playing with your fellow guild members, regardless of what you're actually doing? Are you an important and respected member?
If you're answering yes to these questions, then I do urge you to be patient, even if it's easy for me to say. You have too much to lose if you give up on your guild now. Finish the excellent quest lines in Storm Peaks and Icecrown that you probably didn't need to ding 80. Go back and do those group quests you skipped -- and help some of your leveling members do them at the same time. Work on your reputation, take Wintergrasp Fortress, or level an alt. Play through the Death Knight starting area. Even if you don't plan to play the class, you won't regret it. There's plenty to do to enjoy the game while you wait.
If, on the other hand, you can take or leave your guild, if it just doesn't mean that much to you for whatever reason, then you might as well say good-bye. But you shouldn't leave just because you want to see Malygos. You should leave so that, hopefully, you'll find a guild worth waiting for at level 90.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Snowy Dec 29th 2008 11:13PM
Wow, I love this article. As the GM of [adult swim] on Ghostlands, I have seen many people come and go due to the fact that we are a "Casual Raiding Guild" rather than a Hardcore one. During BC we didn't get to see all of the content though now that we've got a lot of 80s and more and more are hitting 80 we are probably going to go back and do the content from BC just because we can. Also we are just now working on getting geared up enough to do Naxx, running Heroics as often as possible as well as other 80 instances. I know that already one person has left the Guild to find another that was already in Naxx. They are happy with the fact that they get to raid a lot more but I don't believe they are able to enjoy the casual atmosphere that we in [adult swim] have to offer.
During BC we saw a lot of people come and go, they come in thinking that they will get to see plenty of content and the fact of the matter is they weren't able to and I never told them that they would. I don't lie about the fact that we are a casual guild who enjoys raiding and doing a variety of other types of things within the World of Warcraft.
I think this article is great, I've linked it on our Forums so that people can read it. I know even I myself have thought to myself, perhaps I should give the Guild to someone else or put another one of my characters as the GM so that I can go and become a part of Plan B or another Hardcore Raiding Guild. Though at the same time, I realize, that I would absolutely hate being in that Guild almost every moment I am online (Unless we are currently in a Raid). So I have stuck around, and I see many others sticking around.
I love my Guild. It took me from moving through a small handful of Guilds before I decided to create it. My Officers, My Guildies and myself have worked very hard to create a Guild that fit perfectly to our needs. It took me a while to get used to the fact of people coming and going, but it happens, and in my opinion it weeds out those who truly could not fit in with us, and I have come to understand that I am fine with that. I strongly urge people to do what is best for them, and if that means leaving the Guild then so be it. Though if sticking with us and working toward seeing all of the different content, then yay I am happy I could help provide a group environment that works for them.
This article is great, it touches on a lot of important things. There are many things that someone can do beside what was offered in this Article. Go and work on Achievements, skill up your Cooking, Fishing and First Aid. Farm Mounts from BC and Azeroth Raids/Instances and much much more. There is always something there to do in WoW especially with the new Achievement system.
Thanks for this Article! Am sure it will help many people.
Ice Princess Dec 30th 2008 12:22AM
Our GM fkd us over when he decided to transfer, he asked who else wanted to go along with him. He approached our core raiders and offered to pay for their transfers - just so he can run raids over at the other realm.
Because he left, everyone else started leaving. Only a few remained. The number of level 80s in the guild are currently under 20. Only about 5-7 people online at the same time. It could be because of the holiday season.
Mmmm luckily for me, I'm not purely into raiding, I like to vary things.... arena, bgs, dungeons, raids and the achievements.
I'll only leave my guild once there's no one else going online.
bananas Dec 30th 2008 12:57AM
I coordinate raids for my guild, and I myself PUG a lot. Being a casual local guild, we have many lower levels as well as those who wish to see content, but whom have been warned that since we are casual we cannot provide the raiding experience more hardcore guilds can.
Being a local guild, alts are rampant, as people create alts just to play in a environment full of local rojak flavour. Some were also new players, who had never raided in BC or in vanilla, so it was foreign to them.
I was one of those who hit 80 early. I didn't wait; I started to PUG instances straightaway. On my server picking up groups is fairly easy and fast, I could always find groups to do group quests while leveling. I guess it was okay for me since I was away for 2 weeks after the second week of Wrath, though I would have probably liked to grind more badges and up a few rep factions during the time I was away.
Neither did my guild members who hit 80 early wait. They PUG'd on their own and ran with guildies whenever possible, though I think there is not one of them who enjoy PUGs as much as I do. During my absence some of them got more geared than me lol.
Of course, there were those who found the slow pace not to their taste. They wanted to see Malygos' corpse splayed out in front of them ASAP; to see the purples drop into their bags. They left. I do not begrudge them; I wanted to see content too, but I found that I was not willing to give up the friends that I had made in my guild for a token piece.
It doesn't matter to me if people never reach 80.
I love my guild.
Jyotai Dec 30th 2008 2:37AM
It doesn't take anywhere near as much work in Wrath to get to 80 and get raid ready, even for a tank, as it did in classic and BC.
So...
you're really hurting yourself if you can't wait a few weeks for the others to catch up. If the community of your guild is something you like, stick with them.
There's no need for guilds to die as raiders try to get together despite hating each other. This isn't the old days anymore - we can play with the people we like now. :)
Just hop on an alt, or help some of your guildies. In no time at all you're have enough people to do the heroics or the raids and they'll be the people you've grown to like, rather than a collection of strangers trying to out e-peen each other for top spots.
ANY GUILD can raid now.
So go with the crowd you like, not the crowd that progresses fastest.
Wavemancali Dec 30th 2008 2:45AM
As a Guild Leader of a casual guild I am always seeing the same old comments that put me off somewhat.
It''s always what does this guild have to offer me? You might want to start asking yourselves the question what you are offering the guild. In your mad purple fever or rush to see the end game are you really offering anything to the guild other than just DPS/Heal/Tank numbers and a pulse to fill a slot?
It's a social game. Not all people are playing to be the best on the server. To some it's still a game to play with friends. You might want to step back and see if this has turned into your second job.
Arcticwolf Dec 30th 2008 3:11AM
I agree Wavemancali. I love the guild I am in at the moment. Guys have been raiding for a few weeks now (guild just cleared Naxx fully for the first time this week!!) but there is no rush for others to catch up. There have been a few hic-ups along the way, losing our 2nd squad to idiots who left when they didn't get their way in the 25-man Naxx.
I only made 80 last week, gearing up for tanking... still no pressure! Guildies are offering to go on heroics runs with me for gear, doing enchants and cutting gems for gear that I have so I get the stats I need... and yet still no need to rush.
I figure the people in my guild are after the same thing as me: Fun. Yeah, purples are sweet. I just offloaded a heap of purple 70's leveling up to 80. i guess when the level cap is raised to 90 I will do the same again with the purple 80's. But the fun you can have with a group of people, clearing 10 man Naxx and progressing to 25 man Naxx, OS, Wintergrasp... or wiping in H Gundrak because the group just can't get it together long enough to beat the first boss... hell, we had a laugh. What more do you want for $25 a month?
Jess Q. Dec 30th 2008 8:58AM
Bravo to your last paragraph, Waveman. There are times when I'm not even having fun playing this stupid game because I'm trying SO hard to keep up with my friends that I start doing things like letting my grades slip (not really a big deal in community college, but still). I like having Alts and just kind of dicking around leveling and enjoying the sights, but I seem to be in the minority.
If it wasn't for the pressure of being able to see the new stuff when my friends do (so they don't spoil it for me or move on from that content by the time I'm the proper level to run it), I probably wouldn't have a single character to 60 yet, yet alone to 80. I do have an 80, though I dinged 70 long after BC came out. I worked my ass off to make my Warlock the second 80 in our guild. The first 80 was my boyfriend who goes to work only when they call him, which makes it really hard to keep up with him when he doesn't work for a few weeks but I still have to go to school. :P
Anyway, my point is, I really rushed through to 80 to keep up with my boyfriend and guild (it was a shock to me that I dinged 80 2nd), but in general I quest slowly, inefficiently, and spend lots of time just standing in Silvermoon commenting on Trade and staring blankly at my bag slots. I wish more people did the same thing, honestly. It's such an e-peen contest sometimes, it's insane.
That said, I like my guild okay, but we're extremely small (maybe 15 unique players total?), and literally never do anything together at all. We mainly use guild chat to talk to each other and that's it. Literally myself, my boyfriend and one other player are close and frequently do PUGs together. The others guild members don't contribute at all, poke around on Alts even worse than I do, and fill our guild bank with shiny fish scales and stacks of linen.
If you don't like your guild, I say get out. When I played Alliance side, we had another real life guild which eventually dissolved when a large number of them left for various raiding guilds. Our solution was to just make a general channel for us all to keep chatting without having to be in a guild. Easy fix. No feelings were hurt. I'm sure some people could create drama, but I never took it personally when people left the guild.
thee Dec 30th 2008 3:06AM
I was the second lv 80 in my guild (only behind the DK) and I do seek to raid but its not that hard to find pugs for 10 man raids but it seems like you can never find a pug for a 25 man.
My ret paladin is geared as far as he can go in heroics from pugs and most of my guild is in their lower 70s still trying to catch up. I have decided to stay with them for new and attempt to find pugs for raids but that doesn't always work out well
DaveyMcDave Dec 30th 2008 4:34AM
Here here. This thread is quite heartwarming.
I'm on a relatively small guild on a new server ( on Blade's Edge EU), so most people who are in it have just started playing WoW this summer - me included. There's a very focused raiding community who wanted some easy Realm First achievements, but aside from that most guilds are pretty casual. I'm currently 79, about to hit 80, and I considered whether I should jump ship at 80 so I can see content. Most guilds have little experience of raiding, so we have more barriers in front of us than just gear.
But you know what, I'm gonna stick it out. I've levelled right from the low 20s on my first toon, and it's a great atmosphere. I remember first learning Maraudon and struggling with guildies terribly - very difficult to get PuGs (most people don't realise the place exists!) and people always seemed to leave as we progressed through the instance.
I've respecced to prot just to tank for this guild, and they really need decent tanks. And I've never done old content, so we're not in a hurry to clear new stuff. I think I'll take my time. Maybe solo some drop mounts from instances :)
Volkof Dec 30th 2008 7:59AM
Good article and so true in my case. Been playing for a month or five and currently one of the probarbly five active lvl80 in my Guild. In those couple of months I've seen a lot o lvl80 players leave, cause they wanted to raid and our Guild is more the social kind. Being a fairly casual player.. meaning, I play a lot, but just don't take it to seriously, I kinda like the guild.. I get some oppertunities to run heroics and raids with other guilds. Mostly focusing on rep, doing the quest lines ad wating patiently that more players become lvl80 and L2P their class..
I think it depends where the funfactor is for you.. I like monsters and roaming trough a fantasy world with my trusty Dwarf Warrior.. slaying anything that comes in my path.. And that, is perfetly possible solo!
Vinna Dec 30th 2008 4:47AM
We've had more people leave and regret it than leave and be happy with moving on, so I'd have to say my guild is doing something right even if we aren't the fastest on progression.
But a suggestion to anyone facing this decision. If you do decide to leave your guild, do it nicely! Don't burn your bridges on the way out. We've had people nicely exit, thanking us for a good time, but yet they want to see further content, and we've wished them well and stayed friends with them.
We've had other people make big scene's upon exiting, we've had people tell us we sucked upon leaving, and well.. when they regret it a week later and ask to come back, if they were such a jerk when leaving, the door is closed to them, on the other hand the people who left in a polite, dignified manner, we've welcomed back with open arms.
Even if you think you won't ever want to go back, you really shouldn't burn your bridges. You really never know..
bigjonno Dec 30th 2008 6:34AM
As an ex-guild leader, I've certainly seen a lot of drama regarding this kind of thing. We had one member who left and moved server to play with some RL friends. We stayed friends and he kept alts in the guild.
Just after Wrath came out he asked to come back as his friends had stopped playing. We welcomed him back and everything was fine until he had been 80 for a while. We only had half a dozen 80s, but he was clearly getting restless. He was pugging raids, which was fine, but he wasn't putting any time into doing anything with the guild and never seemed available to do heroics or 80 instances with people trying to level or gear up.
From my perspective, it's a slap in the face. A guild is a communal effort and you should put in as much as you take out. If you're happy to accept help when you need it and have your friends available when you want to talk to them, you should be prepared to wait a couple of weeks for people to catch up.
automator Dec 30th 2008 9:29AM
I'm a firm believer in PUGs. I think they do more to up your skill than a smooth guild run. Preps you for mistakes.
GirlyGirl Dec 30th 2008 10:29AM
I went through this myself when I reached 80. Being a Holy Priest, I was in high demand for PUG instance running so I leveled much more quickly than the rest of my guild members. (In fact, there are only 2 other 80s in the guild at this point.)
I have been to successful OS and Naxx PUGs and have done numerous heroics. I'm geared to the teeth with all of the heroic and 10-man epics while the rest of my guildmates are still leveling.
Would I switch guilds to go into 25-mans? Not on your life. I love my guildmates and look forward to playing with them for a long time. If I were in a hurry to see all the content so I could move on to another game, I might consider switching guilds to achieve that goal much more quickly. But, I have no interest in doing that.
“Don 't hurry. Don't worry. You're only here for a short visit. So don't forget to stop and smell the roses.” -- Walter Hagen
erogroth Dec 30th 2008 11:19AM
This hits a spot with me. I have been in only 2 guilds since launch of WoW. My first was a guild called Occido-Fetialis on Doomhammer US. I was running 15 man UBRS with these guys. I was the main tank in MC and BWL. We were never "hard core". in fact we never made it it naxx when BC came out. But I made so many great friends there. I have visited some out of state and some of come to visit me. I have known many of these guys for years now and never even met them in RL.
When BC came out we had the problem many guilds had of how to progress our 40+ members in 10 and 25 man raids. We ended up splitting up. People who wanted to go hard core started a new guild and went on to clear all the raid content and be a top raiding guild on our server. Myself and the more "casual" players joined a guild started by a former member of our guild called Battleworn. This was my home throughout BC. We had issues with our progression which upset many members, me included. We only cleared 2 bosses in SSC and 2 in TK along with Gruul and Mag. I had the oppertunity to leave and join a great guild but then I though about my friends. We had been through so much together and I said to myself "I would rather sit around Shatt doing nothing with people I love then go raid Sunwell with people I hardly know". And so I stayed.
Eventually as raiding declined and Wrath drew near we disbanded. Many of us who had come from the original guild of Occido Fetialis went back and reformed our old guild. Though we are staying casual we are being more picky with who we bring in. We are currently doing Naxx as a 10 man and have cleared all but 2 bosses. As soon as a few more people hit 80 (me included) we may move on to the 25 man content.
My point in all of this is that this is a MMO. That means that you have to play with other people to do most stuff in this game. I find that the game is more enjoyable to be with people I truly love playing with instead of anyone who will have me. These people are my second family and I will do anything for them.
If you are one of those people who hop form guild to guild because you want to see other content and you use people like us as stepping stones, please stop and think for a moment at what you are missing out on in order to see the next dungeon. Find yourself not only a guild but a home. You won' regret it.
ttvp Dec 30th 2008 12:16PM
Meh, I took a break from the game for over a year and a half, coming back with Wrath. I still have half of the content in Outland to finish before I can even think about Northrend. My guild is practically dead, there's only about 20 members and only a couple of them and the guild leader log in a couple times a month. Why am I still in the guild? Because I want to be.
It's not all about the content. I enjoy being in a guild for many reasons. A big one being that I'm not harassed from people to "OMG JOIN MAH GUILD CALLED LAZOR PEW PEW", also the members are decent people to chat with when they log on. I also love the name/tabard (and also the only reason why the leader hasn't disbanded it yet). It may be purely a guild for side characters, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Don't have to worry about drama nowadays and it's a lot less pressure on me as an officer so everything feels more relaxed. Sure I have some trouble finding groups for Burning Crusade instances that I want to do, but I have real life friends I can bug about that. Everybody has different reasons for being in a guild, it depends on what your interests are. I'm pretty dedicated to my guilds, in fact I've never /gquit a guild before since I stick around until the end. It's just a sense of pride that I have as a warrior (probably my RP server influences kicking in too).
Everyone has their own criteria they want their guild to meet, if they're not satisfied, let them just do what they wish.
Cyanea Dec 30th 2008 8:28PM
My guild is fantastic. I love the social atmosphere, but the problem is that it is a largely social/casual/levelling guild. Arranging Heroics, even with eleven 80s is like pulling teeth.
So I took my lvl80 Warlock out, joining another, more "hardcore" raiding guild that several other people from the original guild joined. I plan, once I'm geared up in purples and whatnot to return because as I said...I love that guild. Best guild I've ever been in.
It's not really AS big a deal for me, as I'm a confirmed altaholic, and rotate across my alts very often. The majority of them are all in the first guild, so it's not like I ever truly "left". They just all call me psuedo-Cy now. >:D
Moo Jan 2nd 2009 7:24PM
I recently joined a very casual guild as my old one imploded slightly before WotLK was released. I'm 32, I work and I like having an IRL social life so I can't commit to a set in stone raid schedule (I'm not the kind of guy to bail on guildies constantly). I had been PuGing a bit and a group for regular VH needed a healer. I hadn't been in and had just hit 80 so I figured I'd better check it out before trying to heal it on heroic. Had a very successful run, thanks to another 80 in the PuG who was there to help out a 73 guildie. I liked the fact that there was an 80 actually taking the time to help a guildmate. They invited me in and I joined up. Couldn't be happier. Sure I'd love to be running more 10-man Naxx in anticipation of 25-man raiding, but I'm more than happy to wait for a group of quality folks to level up (we only have 4 80's right now).
People say it's not about the loot, it's about the content. That's true. It's also about the people you're with. I'd much rather be patient and experience it with some folks I know than to dash through it with PuGs. Plus my guildies are less likely to scream at me if I screw up the healing and get us wiped! ;)
Be patient..and if you are a Guild leader and you're losing people, I wouldn't stress it, they don't really want to be there anyway and there are FAR more people like me in WoW than there are hardcore raiders. You wont have any trouble filling the ranks if you are cool people.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 5th 2009 1:26PM
My guild seems to be growing, that is it is picking up more dps than it knows what to do with it. So we have numbers to do normal 10 man raids and stuff.
I tank so my job isn't really up to grabs yet - and considering how some of the players "want" to tank but aren't bothering to gear themselves up, I don't doubt they'll be waiting quite a bit. (We have a dk who wants to tank and is specced Blood and has green gear on. He expects to tank and to get free gear off the work of others because he's not bothering to run normal runs at all. While helping someone gear up is a nice gesture, it shouldn't come as a free ride either. This DK could at least be doing the normal runs, but opts out of it and wants to go straight to heroics. I have a problem with that - I worked on normal runs, crafted gears and other stuff stuff, but he just wants it handed to him. I can't help but want him to fail so that I can point out "Told you so.")
The only reason I'd actually leave the guild is to drop the pressure on me to be run heroic with people I don't like - like that DK above. In my guild, there's people I don't mind doing stuff with, but lately I seem to get stuck running the same heroics with a few people I really can't stand. There's also a hunter that annoys the hell out of me and who is the typical buffoon with a "good heart". I say this because he doesn't mean bad (most of the time), but he's typically the kind of person who asks for help in terms of everything, gets lost, expects you to do the work for him and he doesn't play his class very well to boot. Often time other people have to correct him and he acts like the fault belongs to the pet, or the mob...never him.
When someone comes on and persistently bothers you for a run when they can't have the common sense to see you're busy on an alt or doing other stuff, that's getting rather demanding. I don't like demanding people who think they have an entitlement to your time in the game. It rather is a fast way to piss me off and leave me thinking, "Maybe leaving the guild would be a good way for me to have some control back."