Officers' Quarters: Riding the pine

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Raids are in many ways like a sports team. Some players are your proven starters. Some are your backups who fill in for the starters. Some are still learning the game and trying to get the right equipment -- they are your practice squad or your AAA team. With enough hard work and dedication, a player can improve his game and become a starter. It's true in sports and it should be for your raid team as well. Otherwise, what's the motivation to work hard?
The opposite can happen as well: a player who doesn't perform consistently can be replaced with someone who's playing at a higher level. But what would you do if you were told you're being benched -- permanently -- just because you joined more recently than someone else? This week's e-mail comes from a tank who went from a starter to a benchwarmer overnight, and it illustrates exactly what not to do as a guild leader.
Heya Scott,
First off, wanted to say I love your article and read it every time I see it. I have a problem with my guild, and am sending you this as possible commentary for your next article.
My guild is a fairly casual one with a very strong group of officers that have been together since the beginning of WoW. Needless to say, they have been through thick and thin. I joined with the guild about 6 months ago, and have since made a name for myself being a solid tank and a steady mind. I helped a lot throughout BC raiding and really feel a part of the guild.
Then WotLK hit.
I play a feral druid tank, which means that I finally get to see equal tanking playing fields. I rushed to 80 (second one in the guild, behind the GL), and started gearing up to prepare for raids. I was easily the best geared tank in the guild. [. . .] I helped out a lot gearing up healers and DPS alike in 5-mans, and was reading up and getting experience in 10-mans with PUGs, so that I could bring that knowledge back to my guild.
We even tried a first attempt at Naxx about three weeks ago, where I was proud to be put as MT. We only did it for about an hour, but I was really happy . . . for the first time in my WoW career, I was the main tank!
Since then, however, things haven't been as good news. The guild leader leveled up his own tank, and geared him out as well, along with a warrior tank who has been in the guild for a lot longer than me. [. . .]
The real problem came around last weekend, when apparently the guild leader decided to try Naxx again. He asked who wanted to go the next day, and got a solid group together. I wasn't online at the time, holidays and all, and when I signed on later that night, I was asked by a senior guild member if I wanted to OT for it. Happily, I said yes.
I spent the next afternoon getting ready for the raid, fishing, grinding mats, all that fun stuff. When the time came, however, all I got was a whisper from the guild leader if I wanted an invite. As DPS. I absolutely hate being kitty DPS, and this really pissed me off. He had given the OT spot to the more senior guild member, even though I had been busting to level and gear up to get everybody up to speed. [. . .] Sadly, I signed off and did something else to get my mind off of it.
However, when I signed on later that night after the run to talk about it, an even more disturbing thing happened. The guild leader told me point blank that he and the warrior were going to be the tanks for all Naxxramas runs, and for all guild raids until they no longer wanted to tank anymore. [. . .] I'm looking at being benched for not only this weekend, but most likely the next couple months at least! In BC, we would have weekly, first-come first-serve sign-ups. But apparently this time he decided to go with a basis of guild seniority, and I got the shaft.
Is this appropriate guild leader behavior? I would understand not getting into a run now and then on a rotation basis, but to be told straight that I would not be tanking anytime soon seems really offensive. I also feel bad for other guildies who have been joining up recently. They have absolutely no chance to be getting into these raids. I'm torn between gquitting, trying to form my own raid groups in guild, or shutting my mouth and pugging. Any advice on this matter would be much appreciated.
Well, I give your guild leader props for being honest with you, but that's about it. Obviously you've worked very hard to be in a position to help the guild and make a quality contribution in your raids. It baffles me to see all that hard work dismissed so cavalierly.
I wonder what your guild's official policy is on filling raid slots. If it is purely seniority-based, as you hypothesize, then I suppose you can't really argue with it. But that is a very weak system. Senior members should be rewarded in some ways, but guaranteeing them raid slots is only prone to make them lazy and ineffective, while newer, hungrier members sit out.
If this really is the new policy, your guild leader should have announced this change and made it official before any raiding happened at all. It's not fair to members who have one set of expectations about raids to learn suddenly that it won't be done that way at all.
I also don't see a whole lot of value in the first-come, first-serve system that your guild operated under in TBC. To be honest, that's the system my guild used for much of original WoW, and it's one of the reasons we would struggle in smaller raids like Zul'Gurub where every person's contribution meant more. Getting into the raid was just a matter of being online when it was put up in the calendar, so people who were online more got into more raids. But that never meant that they were better raiders than others who missed the window of opportunity to sign up. We didn't clear ZG until we decided to assign slots based purely on performance.
No matter what your guild's policy is, you deserve to know exactly what you were doing or not doing that earned you the benching.
But what really blows my mind here is for a guild leader to flat out tell any member that they'll never get into a raid until the existing team gets bored. Honestly, why would you -- or anyone not on the team -- stick around? Is your guild leader so short-sighted that he can't imagine a day when someone on the team can't make it to a raid? Is your guild leader so afraid of competition that he can't handle anyone else ever main-tanking the runs?
What if someone on the team suddenly has to quit the game for personal reasons? No one else ever got the chance to gear up, so whoever fills that slot will be way undergeared compared to the rest of the team. They'll also have zero experience in the zone, which is going to slow down your runs.
The worst part of it goes back to what I was saying earlier: whoever isn't already on the raiding team has zero motivation to work hard, because they will never sniff a raid instance with the guild until someone else decides they don't want to go.
In my guild, we reward those who work hard and prove they're ready to raid with the opportunity to go. That means team members have to volunteer to sit out to give others a chance. Many of my players are generous by nature, so it hasn't been a problem so far. We've managed to work in everybody who's earned a slot so far. And I realize it's not quite so easy in other guilds, but the benefits of doing this pay off in the long run when unexpected things happen with your best raiders. And the other benefit is obvious: it keeps your members happy and motivated, knowing they can earn a place in a raid.
As for our friend the feral tank, I recommend a serious talk with your guild leader. Explain why this situation leaves you no choice but to find another guild if you want to raid as a tank. If he doesn't understand why this new raiding policy is bad for the guild after that, he probably never will.
Sure, you could also try to form a secondary team within your guild if the opportunity is there, but before you volunteer to do that, you should make it clear that you will be leading it and you will have the final say on who goes. Otherwise, your guild leader could step in and dictate that you have to bring certain people just because they've been in the guild longer than others. You could get bounced from your own runs!
I don't mean to hate on guild veterans. Anyone who's been in a single guild for a long time has made sacrifices along the way and probably had to deal with some unpleasant circumstances now and then. That deserves consideration.
But I don't think seniority should trump performance in a raid setting. You'll never keep new recruits that way. Your guild will stop growing, and eventually it will shrink, until you've got no one left but the old-timers -- old-timers with no one to replace them when they quit the game or get bored of a raid zone.
A guild that can't replace old-timers with fresh recruits is doomed to a slow death. Don't let it happen to you.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Vlatch Jan 5th 2009 1:11PM
I have a question to add that's related. If performance is your metric, how can you prevent the folks that are benched from catching up?
WoW is very-much gear based, and while I agree that performance should be a key measure of a raid slot, when you're left out in the cold for a month in Naxx, your gear is going to lack.
For any role, that means they look just as bad as they did before. First come, first serve has always worked before for us, with me (raid leader) swapping people in and out depending on gear/skill/previous attendance. If you have consistently signed up as a replacement, have proven that you are ready to go (gear+skill), and can show up on time, you'll get a slot more often than not.
The only problem here is managing the expectations of 15 people that all want to go to run the 10 man.
Vlatch Jan 5th 2009 1:14PM
how can you prevent the folks that are benched from catching up?
edit: should have read "how can the folks that are benched ever catch up to the weekly raiders?"
I'm worried that gear will always lag, they won't really hone their skills, and it's just as good as saying "you'll never get to go."
Hakushi Jan 5th 2009 1:43PM
I think that when he said any guildie that earned the slot, he is talking more then just gear. If the person shows enough desire to have full blues from questing and end level instances, they are geared to start the instance. If they are willing to work with the group well, then they will not drag on the group to finish the instance. Provided that you are a rotating "core" group that fills out the key roles - MH, MT, and a good DPS or two, depending on the rest of the raid - you should be able to pull a newbie or two through without a lot of issue.
Gearing up later is even easier. If you have half the raid in full epics (avg ilvl 200+) the other half can be in greens, provided that they listen and don't stand in the fire, and attack the right targets. As the new raids drop, with more people in even higher gear going for badges, this makes it even easier to gear up.
When you have a guild that is running Naxx well, gearing up a "third string player" is probably not an issue. Attitude should be what earns the spot, as that what will really determine if the person can play with the core raid.
memzer Jan 5th 2009 2:09PM
If you can run all heroic content you're plenty geared for 10/25 man raid content (excluding Sarth with multiple drakes). Once you have a firm grasp of the encounter mechanics you'll push for the 20 man achievement for Naxx and realise that there isn't any point to bickering about raid spots. For everything but Sarth we generally clear with about 15 or so core raiders and flesh out the raid with people who missed out, need a specific peice of gear or were a bit slower levelling in the expansion.
I wouldn't even worry too much about gearing your characters, expect to see people selling raid slots for gear on your server soon (if they aren't already, 30k gold for the twilight drake if you hail from Frostmourne) - it's just that easy :)
Harmun Jan 5th 2009 2:56PM
In a guild that only runs 10 man, it's easy. Either foster an environment where the top performers want to help the new players get where they need to be, or spread your raiders into more raid groups than you can handle completely in guild, and pug for the left over spots.
The first way is how we do things in my guild- we're lucky that our top performers and senior members want to see the guild progress as much as they want to progress their own characters. This leads to many gifts of craftable epics and raid consumables, as well as raid slots. When we all need to learn an encounter, we're not above quietly asking the bottom 2 performers to take a break so we can sub in the experts, but once we know the fight, we're equally likely to sub out someone who we know can do it and sub in someone who needs work (on gear or learning the encounter)
The second way can work for the more traditional guilds whose members are a little less likely to donate or volunteer things that help them to players who need them more. It ensures that everyone gets a spot in a raid group, and as long as your PUG members are about as geared and experienced as your new guild members, you won't have that much trouble clearing wings in Naxx. The beauty of raiding is that one well geared and experienced player can lead a rag-tag group of badly geared Naxx first timers to a couple of boss kills the first time out, and then it just gets easier from there.
Quark1020 Jan 5th 2009 11:55PM
My old guild had a pretty good way for swapping players around, granted it probably works best for 10 man. Basicly, what every player does is make a bit of a wish list of all the gear they'd like from the bosses that we can get around to killing. From there, we simply rotate the players whenever we reach a certain boss. Sure, it makes for slower raids, but everyone is happy.
In any case, if that letter is true, that guild is gonna run into alot of problems very soon. Sure, he'll have good geared main and off tank, but if either of them cant make it for some reason, the whole raid is gonna be bad. At that point, he'll see downside to his selfishness. If the sender decides to stay in that guild, that'd be the time to rub it in. Still, i rather not see it in the next guild watch article, so if it were up to me, i'd leave that guild. Although its not as bad as before, guilds always have need for a good tanks and a good player.
Meeo Jan 6th 2009 11:13AM
Bring the gear not the class?
Vlatch Jan 6th 2009 12:14PM
"bring the gear, not the class?"
Not what I was implying, but when a dps'er is decked out in T7 and you try to compare apples to apples with someone that's been forced to sit out because they initially "weren't ready to raid yet," how do you really think you'd be able to compare them?
Wouldn't the person decked out in T7 win out every time, simply because of gear?
Rijthul Jan 6th 2009 3:00PM
"Bring the gear, not the class"
Having recently joined up with a raiding guild on my server, I'm lucky that their system seems to rely on quality of performance, not necessarily high damage output (being a mage competing for DPS slots) or any other aspect of gear. The only gearing requirements I was informed of flat out was having my frost resist gear crafted for Sapphiron, and most people were currently working on that, so everyone was helping each other out with mats and such.
The system in the guild seems to be "who can follow instructions and not kill the rest of the raid?" People who survive the Heigan dance, can rotate around Thaddius properly, or get behind the ice blocks on Sapph probably have a better chance of getting into next weeks raid than the perfect spec DPS machine who couldn't dodge a void zone if we gave him a ten second warning.
With any luck, more guilds will develop this sort of philosophy as they move through content, or they'll see more and more players shopping around for better places to raid.
mooeybueno Jan 5th 2009 1:11PM
This happened in a Guild I am recently in. We had a few people /gquit over it. They are raiding happily and more frequently then in their old guild. I would shop around, there is nothing binding anyone to any guild unless they are RL Friends...
Zakurax Jan 5th 2009 2:15PM
Something similar happened to me in my previous guild.
We had some diffrent ranks in the guild: Recruit, Social(Who are not allowed to raid), raiders, officers and GL.
The day after I became 80 we tried Naxx 25 man, just to see what we lack. It was a guild run with some pugg people.
I was the lowest on the dps of the hunter from the guild in that run, as all of them had done UK Hc and had the crossbow (I am a hunter btw) and had better gear then me all over.
Some time after it was a new raid, 10 man nax.
I noticed that I was demoted to social and were denied to even sign up for the raid. I asked the GL why I had been demoted and he just answered that it was to many hunters in the guild that he just had to pick some of us and demote us.
Social are treated as they are not in the guild and have to sign up on the webpage.
Hunter recrution was closed, and therefor no chance of me getting in again.
So basicly what he told me when I had been demoted was that they had invited to many new hunter and had to forbid some hunters that had been there a time from raiding at all, ever with the guild.
/gquit and finnished with those guys.
If I were you I would do the same, tank. If you are told you are not allowed to raid and that is your desire, just leave them.
breaklance Jan 5th 2009 3:09PM
ya seniority blows. I've been getting the shaft since WotLK started. To be somewhat fair we have way too many tanks. 3 warriors, 1 paladin, 2 ferals, and any 1 dk whos raids dps. Of those 1 warrior is a reroll from his long-time rogue, and is has title "raid leader." Going down the list War2 is senior O, Pally is Class Lead. Both ferals have been forced down to kitty dps except for the rare fight and lack of tanks.
When I came to the guild in BC, war1 war2 and the pally weren't playing, and the ferals were occasionally on for raids. So when I came in I was immediately MT-ing all raids was mt for vashj, kael, and illidian kills. Now I still get to raid tank, but im the very last person on the list. I'm "bidding" for upgrades from blues to 25man epics, while the other guys are bidding on upgrades from 10mans. Due to the loot system(4 tanks bid on an item, 1 tank gets, next item drops only 3 tanks can bid and so on untill all 4 tanks have gotten a raid peice), and their seniority within the guild I've been shafted on most BIG upgrades for me.
So with my new work schedual, I've just been working on my shaman alt instead of my war, and no longer reschedual my outside life around raids.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 5th 2009 4:15PM
At least in my guild they have set up rotation for people who want to raid so that it gives people a chance to get gear and not be screwed out.
Something just seems fishy here though. The GM had a different main obviously because he switched to a warrior right? If he switched and he already had two tanks to begin with who were geared... what was his motivation? Seriously, I would wonder about why they intentionally are sitting the druid out. It seems an intentional thing here.
It could just be that he enjoys tanking and decided to be a selfish a-hole by sitting out competition, but any smart person would do rotation here.
vinniedcleaner Jan 5th 2009 8:01PM
This wouldn't happen to be Chicken on Rice on Dark Iron would it?
Miles Jan 5th 2009 1:13PM
I'd recommend starting your own 10 man raid team, that's what happened in my guild when the officers made their own group and now we've progressed a lot faster with people we actually enjoy!
Random Cow Jan 5th 2009 1:14PM
It may simply be that he is not that good of a tank. He was asked to come as DPS, so was not pushed out of the raid. I sense the emo in this one. I think the guild leader is being unfairly judged here as well. We don't have all the story here.
My advice would be to either suck it up and go as DPS, or pug it elsewhere. After pugging Naxx 10 for a bit, he may find another guild that will let him tank more often.
Clevins Jan 5th 2009 1:39PM
No. Because he wants to tank, has geared for it and shouldn't have to accept a dps role just because the GL wants he and his buddy to tank. He'd never get tanking upgrades, so he'd fall behind And, if the GL felt tanking performance was an issue he should have said so, not this 'we're going to tank until we're bored' crap.
Grinn Jan 5th 2009 1:56PM
I am sympathetic to his lose of the tank spot but yes lets not forget HE WAS NOT BENCHED. He was asked if he wanted to DPS. Spec'ing for the sake of progression and the guild is part of the game and while he may have gotten the shaft I too agree that we are only getting part of the story.
Yakuko Jan 5th 2009 3:11PM
It's easy to say to suck it up and go as DPS, but you do realize that ferals need completely different gear for bear and cat roles? He said he had geared himself up to tank - perhaps he has a decent dps set, but there's a good chance that his dps set may not be as good. Now if they told him they'd need him more as dps before he spent the time gathering tank gear and gold on enchants and gems, that'd be a different story.
Daniel Jan 5th 2009 3:04PM
I see both sides to this story. I definitely think the guild leaders should have had handled this better. He played tank, he wants to play tank, and they knew that. Treating his desires so casually was wrong.
At the same time, I agree that guild members need to be flexible. DPS is not the end of the world, and "until we are bored" is a very vague statement. Maybe the GL was joking and just got misunderstood.
At the end of the day the real issue is that a guild member is feeling used. He needs to have a talk with the guild leaders and scope out if that is really true. If it is, he needs to walk.
For a guild to be successful, everyone needs to give. If that can't happen then go elsewhere. Plenty of guilds.