Crafted Death Knight tanking weapons removed from PTR
by Adam Holisky 
Jan 10th 2009 at 2:00PM
One of the initial changes in patch 3.0.8 was the inclusion of Death Knight tanking weapons that could be crafted by a high level Blacksmith. As of the latest 3.0.8 PTR update, these have been removed. And all indication is that they'll stay removed.Ghostcrawler doesn't want Death Knights to hang onto the weapons throughout their time in Wrath of the Lich King, which is apparently what Blizzard is afraid will happen. The other issue with providing 2H tanking weapons was that Blizzard would have needed to start itemizing (putting tanking stats on and crafting gear for) 2H tanking weapons overall, and that's something they didn't want to do.
The Ghost also points out that the new sigil and runeforge enchant should be enough to get the Death Knight defense up to where it needs to be.
Filed under: Blacksmithing, Patches, News items, Death Knight
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
core Jan 10th 2009 2:08PM
...sweet...
Drae Jan 10th 2009 2:09PM
Too bad.
I was kinda looking forward to them.
Kaphik Jan 10th 2009 2:09PM
They don't want death knights to hang onto a single weapon, yet they haven't provided us with any sigils between 57 and raiding/heroics?
The devlopers aren't making any sense here at all. The runeforge enchant would be a good supplement to the propsed tanking weapons, but it's not a replacement.
As someone pointed out in the Tanking forum post, death knights have fewer equipment slots than the other tanking classes. This puts them in a position whyere they are extremely limited in their gear selection. Many DKs are finding that they need an inordinate amount of+def gems. And if a death knight preparing to raid finally gets himself up to the atats he needs to be a raiding tank, as soon as he gets even ONE piece of T7 tanking gear, his stats drop considerably.
This is a very bad decision on Blizzard's part. Besides, isn't part of the death knight lore the fact that they ARE attached to their weapon??
DeathPaladin Jan 10th 2009 3:15PM
"death knights have fewer equipment slots than the other tanking classes"
A bit of a nitpick, but not entirely true. Feral druids have the same amount of equipment slots, barring a dual-wielding Death Knight. Though dual-wielding in my honest opinion seems to be more amenable to DPS, since the talents necessary to maximize DWing efficiency and the ones necessary for tanking are going to leave you very tight for points if you try to pick both of them up. And that's ignoring having to stack a bunch of extra expertise because you'd need enough to negate parries as well as dodges on top of getting defense and hit capped.
Anyway, the point being that Ferals technically have to tank with the same number of equipment slots as a Death Knight. Of course, Feral tanking in BC was all about stacking armor, dodge, and stamina because their only way to tank a boss was to have enough hit points to survive the crits/crushes because they simply did not have enough gear options to push them off the table.
That being said, it's not impossible for a tanking Death Knight to get defense capped by a longshot. It would be if crushing blows were still an issue, but since they're gone from raids it just requires careful gemming and enchanting for the most part. Particularly with runes like the upcoming Stone Gargoyle.
Pfooti Jan 10th 2009 4:15PM
@Deathpaladin
Druids don't need to get defense capped, so they have a *very* different set of itemization issues to deal with.
Arivia Jan 10th 2009 5:12PM
A grand total of one, which makes it the same case as pre-3.0.2 paladins who had to tank using spellpower weapons.
Nevertheless, you have it slightly worse, as you can't make up for it with a tanking shield. The issue isn't the number of slots (remember, only warriors can use tanking stat ranged weapons), but the fact that Blizzard refuses to give you some sort of base tanking option in your hands.
You know what would work very well? When they pull out feral staves in the loot tables, replace them with two-handed maces with threat stats and dodge rating, which both bears and dks need. Then we'll have paladins and warriors on tanking one-handed swords, and dks and druids on tanking two-handed maces.
Also, the lowering of defense rating on raid and heroic gear pieces in armor slots (head/chest/legs/bracers/hands/shoulders) is ameliorated by other slots providing more defence (especially jewelry). If you're having trouble putting on t7, it's not the tier's fault - it's your fault for not getting better pre-raid gear. Get the trinket off of Loken, the emblem necklace, the helm off Telestra (and put the def rating meta gem in), etc etc. Yes, it's work. Welcome to what paladins have had to do since the beginning of BC, since we shift around gear for avoidance like crazy. Yes, you have to wear the Seal of the Pantheon all the time. We have to wear Lavanthor's Talisman all the time. Subtle differences: do the work.
Amaxe Jan 10th 2009 2:13PM
I thought the idea of tanking with a 2h was a bad idea anyway
Balance seemse to need to make it possible for DK tanks to use weapon and shield or else open up 2h tanking to the pally and warrior as well.
/shrug
A good point about a weapon lasting all the way through LK being a bad idea.
But the thread also raises some good points not mentioned in the article, such as the BOP would essentially require all DKs to be blacksmiths
Karos Jan 10th 2009 2:50PM
LOL
Your first point is just stupid, and no where near Ghostcrawlers point of removing them. There is no loss of balance if Paladins and Warriors can't 2H tank. The whole gimmick of DK's is their ability to tank without a shield. The whole Paladin and Warrior gimmick is to hide behind their shield which gives them access to many threat generating abilities, if any of them wanted to 2H tank they would just be gimping themselves, no matter what.
Amaxe Jan 10th 2009 4:44PM
Thanks for taking the time out from your day to tell people their ideas are stupid. I'm sure you have a sense of accomplishment now.
The point was, to have a sense of balance; if they want DKs to be able to tank with a 2H, fairness requires this being doable for all tanks who might want to have the stats or enchants a 2H provides. If they don't want this, then logically they should make shields available to DK so DKs can actually tank.
Lemons Jan 10th 2009 8:55PM
Wow, that's the first time I've seen a comment that begins with "LOL" get uprated to 3 stars..
skrimyr Jan 12th 2009 12:09PM
Amaxe,
As a feral druid, I completely agree with you. Let the other tanks tank with a 2 hander and give DK's shields - with with your logic though that would mean I would get a shield too right? This could be fun...
While we are at it, let Warriors, Paladins, and DKs shapeshift, because it wouldn't be fair otherwise that I can and they cant.
Oh and we should all be able to heal, since druids and pallys can. And bubble. Pallys can't be the only ones who do that, fairness requires it after all.
Plate armor? They all have it and I don't. I should get that too. +Armor bonus? Give it to them all for balance since I have it and they don't...
This sounds fun. I can't wait to play my Feral Death-Warradin!
Amaxe Jan 12th 2009 12:12PM
Your argument doesn't work Feral Druid.
With Dire Bear, your armor is essentially treated as Plate. In Bear form, what weapon you have does not affect what you do as it affects the other classes.
So your argument only holds if you want to attack in your normal and not Bear form.
skrimyr Jan 12th 2009 1:10PM
How silly my comment looks to you is how silly your comment looks to everyone else.
My over-exaggerated point is that the 4 tanks in the game all tank differently.
I have an armor modifier. Warriors and Paladins get shields. You get a 2-hander, parry, and cooldowns.
Just because we tank differently doesn't mean we need to have the same tools.
Amaxe Jan 12th 2009 1:16PM
Sure, just as long as one of the tools is not broken. The argument over DK tanking is over whether or not it in fact works.
If the DK just sucks, well that is the fault of the player. If the class is deficient to tank... well that is a problem Blizzard has to fix.
Since the Druid tank is not broken, your reductio ad absurdum does not work. However, for the non-shapeshifting tanks there is an issue as to whether they can be equally effective or whether one of them falls short compared to the others.
Remember, Blizzard stated that they wanted tanks to be more or less equal.
TL:DR version. You are free to disagree with what I say, but at least make an effort to read what I say and not just assume you know what I mean.
skrimyr Jan 12th 2009 1:55PM
I had a nice long post written up shooting down you points, but realized that it's just not worth it. So I'll leave it at this.
Lets say you have a low end 13k armor sans shield from questing blues and pre-heroic drops. 80% of that is over 10k armor. Titansteel Sheildwall has 7.5k. A good entry level 2hander that's already in the game will make up for the str and sta you won't get from a shield. Then, the only things you are missing are block and defense. Blizzard is adding in a new rune and new sigil for the defense (and Icebound Fort now has a def. modifier on it), so it's just the block you are missing which DKs make up for with parry. Druid's can't block either, i.e. why they stack dodge.
You argue about druids armor modifier, do you forget you have one too? 80% modifier on the 9k you get from T7 is more than the 370% modifier druids get on the 2.3k they get from T7. 16k-ish for the DK to 10k-ish for the druid.
Amaxe Jan 12th 2009 2:03PM
I don't see the point in continuing this, as your comments show you have no idea what I am talking about in the first place.
I am talking about the general theory of balancing. If Blizzard wants to introduce DK tanking with 2H weapons without some sort of shapeshift, being able to hold aggro, they'll need to tweak it to keep it balanced.
How you got to thinking I was some sort of proponent of DKs and complaining about lack of viability, I have no idea
TheKarmaPolice Jan 13th 2009 9:17AM
DKs have some sort of shapeshift
only we call them presences
Bouille Jan 14th 2009 2:52AM
DKs and the 2H tanking "mechanic" was introduced to WoW so that dpsers could have fun tanking to fill the need for tanks. Wether you want ot admit it or not DKs have a very DPS-esk approach to generating threat. Frost Presence your threat is multiplied on eveyr ability.
It's in the notion of the shield-less tanking that everything gets touchy. Becuase a DK has no shield, you have to somewhat compensate for lack of block% with dodge% and parry%. Unfortunately, diminishing returns, make this a difficult task. Getting def capped is also a bit touchier but by no means harder. Your sacrificing a stam buff on your chest for a def buff.
When it comes to mitigation there is no problem, Frost Presence augments your amor, Bone Shield reduces damage by 40%, and IBF by 50%. With the addition of the 10% parry talent in blood and the extra 25% avoidance from Lichborne and considering you runeforged with the parry rune, a Death Knight can withstand as many blows as any other tanking class.
However, I have found dual-wielding to be the best possible solution. You grab 2 tanking 1 handers. Ex: Red Sword of Courage and Slayer of the Lifeless and you're set for def cap as fast as any other class.
The fact of the matter is that, blizzard has tried to make WoW more accessable to the masses. I seasoned WoW player and tanker sees no problem in getting convieniently geared. However, the average player may find it a bit more difficult as he/she might not fully understand the mechanics involved in tanking that's why Crushing Blows have been removed (Not entirely. Naxx 25 is composed of lvl 83s and only mobs 4 levels higher than you can crush you). Now to follow in the path of accessibility, Blizzard had decided to make 2H tanking weapons which will now be replaced by a new rune.
This new rune grants 20 def rating and 3% stam I believe, this is still less then any dual wielding combination of weapons. With th Red Sword and the Slayer, my present combo, you actually gain 63 def rating, 26 dodge rating, 19 hit rating, 115 stam and 54 strength.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, all blizzard is trying to do is make it a little bit less complicated to gear up for 2H weapon tanking and that IMO dual-wielding is already making it easier to gear up as a tank.
Carda Jan 10th 2009 2:21PM
The thing that makes me the most upset about all this is the fact that we are once again back to a situation where the only high-end crafted 2-hander weapons are maces, which death knights don't have trained by default. Who managed to let that little fact slide past in all the fuss over the expansion release? I was looking forward to finally having a nice epic 2-handed sword to tank heroics with, and they go and pull these off the patch? I can understand some of the concern regarding these being "the only weapons tanks will ever use", but on the other hand, I want a sword that has a nice chunk of strength, stamina, and some crit or parry on it, and I don't want to have to wait until my guild has Naxx on farm status to do it. Even if Blizzard doesn't make the weapons available as tanking weapons, they should still put some thought into restatting them to match their intended design philosophy. To me the whole thing feels like getting a Christmas present taken away, especially since I've been stuck with the De-Raged Waraxe since level 77.
Clevins Jan 10th 2009 3:43PM
If they don't want DKs hanging on to the weapon... create drops that make them want to upgrade.