Breakfast Topic: Who will dual specs benefit most?

By contrast, most of the hybrids to whom I've spoken see dual specs -- not as a competitive advantage, but rather as relief from the financial drain of constant respecs. 50g may not seem like a lot of money in Wrath's economy, but it adds up, to the point where you realize that the two hours you spent doing dailies will only net you about 20g after, say, respeccing to heal a heroic and then respeccing back to tank or DPS for the night's raid. Thus hybrids are equally resentful about the demands made on their time and e-wallet that pure classes don't have to worry about.
The end result seems to be that players talk through each other. Hybrids are focused on saving gold. Pures are concerned that their class is just not desirable enough in the absence of truly superior damage. Hybrids chafe under the cost of building multiple PvE gear sets to do a raid or group's most stressful jobs. Pures twiddle their thumbs on the sidelines in the knowledge that, once a group or raid's DPS slots fill up, they will be sat in favor of a worse player who can respec to do a needed job.
In the end I think pure classes, oddly enough, have the most to gain from the dual-spec system. Dual specs will allow pure DPS to maintain PvE and PvP specs without having to pay to shift between two sides of the game. And while I think many PvP-oriented hybrids will do the same, there is a very strong financial incentive for hybrids to dual-spec for the most requested PvE roles (tanking and healing), which will increase the supply of players available and willing to do these jobs in groups and raids. This is pretty much a win-win scenario for a pure class. The effect on hybrids, while still very positive, is going to be tempered by the fact that PvP specs (or possibly soloing specs) would remain an additional expense on top of the usual need to build, gem, and enchant multiple PvE sets.
Personally I intend to run with PvE tanking and resto builds once dual specs go live as these are (by far) the most requested roles of my main, but I'm curious to see what attitude players are going to bring to the new system.
*For the purpose of this discussion I should note that pure classes = Hunters, Mages, Warlocks, and Rogues. All other classes can all spec into at least two different roles for PvE.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Classes
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 10)
AndremedaSC Jan 16th 2009 9:16AM
I play a warlock, and I am really, really looking forward to the dual spec feature.
I tend to solo almost exclusively, so I have a pure demonology spec and rely heavily on my felguard as a tank. However, when I do get a chance to go to an instance, I would really like to be able to easily respec to a higher-damage spec, since I'm usually asked to have my imp out for Blood Pact anyways.
This was especially brought home to me when I went to Kara the first time after the big pre-WOTLK patch. I was nearly always at the bottom of the damage meter. Since the instance was a lot easier than it used to be (they let me go in greens!) it didn't matter so much, and no one gave me a hard time, but I was acutely aware that I could be doing a LOT more damage. But given that most of my playtime is still solo, I didn't want to start burning gold to change back and forth. (I did, however, respec for Improved Imp, once I saw how important it is in a group when you've got a player tanking.)
Vlatch Jan 16th 2009 9:24AM
As someone who has a hunter and a shaman. I'm looking forward to dual specs, but only on my shaman. I don't usually PvP - and when I do, it's with my main spec on my hunter. I just think switching between a dps spec and a healing spec on my shaman is going to be useful, but it won't be something I do mid-raid.
Some pure dps classes keep saying they'll be benched for hybrids because of their utility, but it doesn't work like that. How many fights in a raid does your guild swap out players? Unless you are on the bleeding edge of raiding (or delusional), your answer is most often going to be "no."
So, how exactly, are you getting benched. You may need an extra healer for the entire run. GREAT! Take that dps shaman that has been picking up the mail healing gear nobody wanted. However, that's just going to mean ONE MORE DPS SLOT for the raid. This shaman would be going anyway, and you certainly can't heal....so why would they replace good DPS when they just lost some good DPS?
This system will mean that more runs happen, and more runs are successful. Nobody is going to be swapping dps and heals 3 or 4 times a raid - and if they do - there is something wrong with the raid group in the first place.
Darthregis Jan 16th 2009 9:23AM
On my druid, I've avoided going to resto because of the minor sacrifices you have to take away from the resto tree and the major sacrifices you have to take from the balance tree. So I've stuck to feral thus far. And now with dual spec on the way, I will now be able to have the feral and resto, with as much focus on the resto tree as possible.
Also, with my mage - PvE and PvP spec. Probably a fire build for PvE and Frost/arcane build for PvP.
Regardless of my character, this bodes well for me.
kard Jan 19th 2009 3:27PM
dual spec doesn't mean it will be free to switch between the two, just that it will be easier to flip a switch w/o clicking all the talent buttons and redoing glyphs. a blue post has said as much.
it *might* be cheaper, but they never said it would be free.
patrick Jan 16th 2009 9:27AM
I'm probably just agreeing with all the hybrids here.
I was a ret pala for 2 years (before the buff when every 14 year old who wanted to be 'leet suddenly rolled ret) and had no interest in healing or tanking. I actually rolled a warrior alt to be the tank, my main was ret ftw.
Since I started my own guild I had to respec holy as we have the same shortages everyone else does. Now I enjoy healing much more than I thought I would but it does get a bit boring. If it didn't cost 100g to spec ret and back I'd happily run some heroics or raids where I'm just smashing mobs faces in rather than healbotting around the place, especially when I'm leading a raid. Just a break now and then from the monotony of healing would be cool....but not so cool I want to spend 1000g a week switching between the two.
Sure, some, mabye most healers chose healing because they love the role. But I think there are a lot of us healing who only do it for the good of our guild or our mates, or even just to get a spot on a raid.
With out us 'involuntary healers' there realms would face an even greater shortage and much less instancing and raiding could be done. So I don't think we are asking to much to be able to switch into the role when needed and switch back to our preferred spec without having to pay such a big penalty.
If there were surplus healers and tanks in WoW and it was dps in short supply then my argument would be rubbish, but if anyone can find me a realm where that is the case I'll transfer there so fast my armour would melt.
Smileypants Jan 16th 2009 9:28AM
One thing that drives me nuts is when DPS cries about not being on top of the DPS charts. Sure it is important to pump out as much damage as you can but a successful raid is way more about how much DPS you can pump out. Of course there are fights that are DPS races -- but the fact of the matter is -- DPS is a group effort (more so in 25 mans rather than 10); so as long is there is not much difference between number 1 DPS and number 5 it doesn't really matter who is on top.
Which brings me to my next point. Never in any of my raids have we turned down a "pure" in favor of a "hybrid" for DPS.
It just is not practical to be so picky about raid composition. My guild does not have the luxury to pick and choose each class we bring to a raid. Our first priority is to fill the raid with the required roles; our second priority is to make sure the raiders are guildies. If we are stuck with 4 mages in a raid that are from our guild than so be it. I imagine that most other guilds are in the same position. I could be wrong; but I only imagine the most "elite" guilds that have people clamoring to join their ranks actually having the chance to pick and choose which class will fill all 25 slots.
Are pure DPS classes going to lose their raid slots? No.
Are all hybrids going to spec DPS? No. I actually forsee more of them speccing healing and tanking for PvE -- which in a sense will free up more slots for pure DPS if they are so concerned about it.
Look, every class worries about becoming obsolete -- I am yet to see this happen for any class in my raids.
Priests will still raid after the CoH nerf.
Death Knights still raid even though there area million of them.
Shaman still raid even if many consider their DPS low.
Druids still tank.
Warlock still raid despite AoE trash killing their DPS.
Hunters will still raid after the nerf.
Stop being so paranoid... and if you are that concerned about finding a raid slot just roll a healer...
admiraljustin Jan 16th 2009 9:29AM
On my pally main I'm going to have Prot and PvE Ret.
On my death knight, Frost DW DPS and Unholy Tank
On my druid, Feral DPS and Feral Tank.
I like tanking :X
BerniTroll Jan 16th 2009 9:29AM
I wonder quite a bit, if my Spec-specific Buffs (like SDK) will remain on the target, even if I switch back to another spec. this would make choosing SDK for a Retripala spec obsolete, and I could spend the remaining points into PVP talents. That would give my Pala a clear advantage in respeccing, since he can actually fulfill 3 roles with this model (Tank, Raiddps, PVP)
BobThomas Jan 16th 2009 9:30AM
man I can't wait to dual spec may Pally. I'm going to have a PvE Ret spec and a PvP Ret spec. Man, that's going to be sweet. Tank? Heal? Whatever, tanking and healing suck. If you want one, be one.
Emorich Jan 16th 2009 9:33AM
the first argument is made invalid by the second one. pure classes are ALREADY losing spots to hybrid classes if they're respeccing. dual specs will just allow them to do it without being poor.
Substandard Jan 16th 2009 9:41AM
I think we'll see a lot of middle raid switching, but I'm a prot pally.
I personally can't wait for dual spec. We generally run 3 tanks in 25 mans, which works well, and is helpful for some encounters. However, there are plenty of fights where you don't need >1 tank, leaving the other 2 tanks to just DPS.
I can't wait till I can switch to Ret, and be able to put up competitive DPS when I'm not needed to tank.
killer_twinkie Jan 16th 2009 9:44AM
I'm most looking forward to dual-specs on my druid. I haven't even played him since WotLK came out because I don't want to pay to respec but I really don't wanna level as resto because it takes me 5 minutes to kill one mob. I'm a healer, I like healing, so when I go into an instance with him if I'm not supposed to heal I wouldn't know what to do which is another reason I haven't worked on him at all. My other toons are just going to have it to try something new without having to get rid of any of my old stuff.
Aelspar Jan 16th 2009 9:45AM
Forgive my denseness, but has there been definitive word that the dual-spec feature will not require gold in order to swap between your two chosen specs? I have occasional worries we'll still have to pay for 'swap credits' or something. :P
Lyraat Jan 16th 2009 9:49AM
As nice as it is for us pures (pvp and pve specs, whoo?), hybrids will dominate raids once this hits. It won't effect the core raiders of a guild, but rather the last 5 or so slots. When filling out the raid, a raid leader could take a pure dps'er who does one role and would have to be swapped out for various fights, or a hybrid who can hit a button and be prepared for any fight. More dps needed on a fight? Hybrid switches to ret/boomkin/arms/whatever. Tank needed? Prot/prot/feral. The pure goes in for a fight, then gets sat. That's what we pures are facing.
The easy solution is to nerf hybrid dps and/or buff pure dps. Priests are bitching about their niche. What about ours? With Wrath, we've lost not just our niche, but much of what made us pure dps. I'm not trying to be melodramatic, I'm honestly worried about this. Already, my guild's dmg meters have shamans, boomkins, and warriors outdpsing hunters and rogues on many fights. Dual-speccing will only make that worse as the hybrids get taken on more raids and thus can keep gearing while we sit.
Firazz Jan 16th 2009 10:15AM
So far, the initial hints on implementation of dual-specs suggest that switching on the fly will be easy in cities, and more difficult in the field. Given the number of concerns that have been expressed on this issue, it would really surprise me if spec-switching didn't get an extended cool-down or other limit.
Angus Jan 16th 2009 10:28AM
I can think of 1 fight in Naxx that a hybrid would be an advantage over a pure.
1
4 horseman (10 man) with 2 healers. As a DPS can switch to a healer to get 3 healers in that fight. That's it.
"More dps needed on a fight? Hybrid switches to ret/boomkin/arms/whatever. Tank needed? Prot/prot/feral. The pure goes in for a fight, then gets sat."
Your logic fails in major ways.
"need more DPS on a fight? Hybrid switches to ret/boomkin/arms/whatever"
So what was this person before. Let me guess a tank. You know any pure class that can tank? If you need more DPS and less tanks, NOT A SINGLE PURE CLASS HAS TO SIT OUT. In fact, all you do is add to them using a tank.
Oh, wait, it was a healer that switched? NAME A PURE CLASS THAT HEALS? Whoops. They can't do that either. So that extra DPS came from someone that was going to the raid anyway, just as a different role. In those cases, you don't bring in someone sitting outside a raid waiting so they can get saved to an instance and only get to see 1 fight. It's actually nicer to them. Get them in a PUG and let them see the entire thing instead of being selfish. And you are more efficient as the people that worked up to that boss get to have a chance to get loot from the boss.
"Tank needed? Prot/prot/feral."
You take the number of tanks needed for the place. You don't take 2 tanks except on bosses that require 3-4. That is just dumb. You take the 3-4 tanks, they all tank things so the raid has less chances of a wipe. What you are suggesting is, again, making someone be saved and then when there is a chance at loot, sit out for someone that didn't earn their way there. And remember that comment about pure class that tanks? Still valid.
Try again. Your points were completely invalid.
Why juggle the raid around and waste time when you can have the tanks you need (5 I think) and the healers (7-8) and the rest DPS. The pure will compete for their slots.
The fights that require less tanks just have those tanks switch to DPS. The pure classes couldn't do that anyway, and the current way most raids do it is to have those tanks slap on DPS gear and play.
The fights that need less healers can have them switch to DPS. Same thing as above, it already happens.
What you are suggesting is that your tanks or healers that clear content up to a boss that only needs certain tanks or healers sit out so someone else can ride on their coat tails and get loot while they sit outside and wait to go back in since they weren't needed anymore.
Yea, real fair there.
The Claw Jan 16th 2009 5:36PM
"Why juggle the raid around and waste time when you can have the tanks you need (5 I think) and the healers (7-8) and the rest DPS."
Angus, the first time you see a fight that is low on tank and healer demands (such as Maexxna) run with, say, 21 properly specced dps instead of 12-13, you'll understand. The difference it makes to the speed of the kill is like night and day.
Pyornthe Jan 16th 2009 9:49AM
Finally, I can go between resto and enhancement at will. I'm constantly wanting to heal when I'm enhance and wanting to DPS when I'm resto. Not to mention I /hate/ doing dailies as resto. Words cannot express how unbelievably much I hate casting. Blargh.
So I say it's going to benefit hybrid classes the most, since pure classes are not completely useless when they're specced to a different DPS tree.
Pyornthe Jan 16th 2009 9:54AM
Even though I'm a hybrid class, I know how you must feel there. I would not object to buffing the pure DPS classes so that their overall damage output is higher. Since I can switch around between specs in an instance, I know I will not have to worry about being replaced by a pure DPS, just as you would no longer feel that your damage is in jeopardy because of my DPS class.
And even though I love Hex, I would rather CC remained the job of the pure DPS classes. It only seems right to me.
Angus Jan 16th 2009 10:06AM
Stop that.
Shaman needed CC in BC to get into heroics, or the heroic needed a tankadin that was good. That was a horrible set up.
Pure classes can't switch in a raid, so what?
How often would you need to anyway?
Know any fights where the standard number of tanks is too little to force a paladin or druid to switch to tanking?
Know any fights where you need more healers and less DPS is okay so that a DPS can switch to healing.
In almost every situation that Dual-spec would help, you will need to replace the hybrid that went to a healing spec with a DPS anyway. These situations are: "not enough healers logged in that day," "a healer had to leave," or "our healers suck, you try." Otherwise you are having a tank change to DPS. And since every tank can do that, it is not like hybrids are stealing that ability.
Hybrids deserve to have around the same DPS. The pure classes got a ton of our buffs to offer, so that reason is outdated.