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1-16-2009 @ 11:59AM
The jury's still out on how much DPS this will ultimately add over the Bear Swipe on trash pulls, mostly because 50 energy is an awful lot (even if you do have 5/5 Ferocity and can reduce it to 45). Most calculations of Cat versus Bear Swipe that I've seen have assumed unlimited rage for Bear, regular use of Maul, and the Maul glyph. That's fine for theorycraft purposes, but in practice I doubt very much you'll have the rage to play around that kind of damage unless you're tanking (in which case comparing your damage to Cat Swipe is pointless). Don't forget about Primal Fury giving 5 rage on crits. With a decent-sized pack of mobs, having unlimited swipes is not all that difficult; all it takes is 3 crits and swipe is free. More than that and you're getting rage from swiping. So unlimited rage isn't actually all that inaccurate, especially as you look at 6+ mob sizes. The problem there is not that you have unlimited rage; it's that you're really likely to pull aggro and be tanking the mobs you're mauling.
1-16-2009 @ 1:00PM
This is correct. The problem with a feral DPSer using bear swipe is that they get the threat modifier from bear form. Given that cat gear should provide more damage than bear gear, a feral dpser will generate more agro doing this than even a normal druid tank.Don't do this unless you fully expect to pull agro on multiple mobs. The real tanks should not be expected to hold agro against a full dps spec with a threat amp.
1-16-2009 @ 1:41PM
Well, yes and no. The problem is that the Bear Swipe vs. Cat Swipe debate is predicated on the notion of Bears devoting most or all of their white hits to Maul *with* the Maul glyph in place, and that changes the rage scenario significantly. It's more than possible to sustain Bear Swipe indefinitely on 3+ mobs if that's all you're doing -- between the rage generated by white hits + Primal Fury, you're unlikely to run out of rage. However, once you start adding Maul to the equation, rage gain declines significantly. Every Maul is a net rage loss between the loss of the rage you would have gained from the white hit in addition to the rage you have to spend on the ability itself. I would be *shocked* if a feral Druid dpsing on trash pulls in bear form for the purpose of AoE damage were able to sustain a rotation heavily inclusive of Maul. On its own, Bear Swipe absolutely does not do as much damage as Cat Swipe; that part is pretty simple. It starts getting muddier once you add the possibility of a high-rage situation where Maul can be spammed. Theorycrafters are, from what I've seen of the numbers, correct that Cat Swipe without the possibility of Berserk and Tiger's Fury will do less damage than a bear with a constantly-refilling rage bar. Where I differ from them is the certainty that Reality Bear will never have as much rage to play with as Theory Bear unless Reality Bear is tanking (where, again, the debate is moot).So, TL:DR:Bear Swipe vs. Cat Swipe: Cat Swipe wins, hands down. Your energy bar, especially assuming KotJ and more than 5K AP in cat, will always refill fast enough to keep you ahead of a Bear spamming Swipe.Bear Swipe plus Maul in theorycrafted unlimited rage situation vs. Cat Swipe: Bear AoE damage wins -- and a tanking Bear may very well out-DPS a cat d/t endless rage.Bear Swipe plus Maul on live vs. Cat Swipe: Cat Swipe still wins, because a Bear who's not being hit cannot possibly sustain Swipe + Maul.At least, that's how I understand the issue. YMMV, but my rage gain goes into the toilet if I'm using Maul while not tanking, and the use of Maul was what vaulted bear AoE damage above Cat Swipe.
1-16-2009 @ 2:43PM
Allison, my experience is that swipe + maul is pretty easily sustainable assuming I have 4 or more targets, and usually sustainable if I have 3. I may have to hit enrage with 3, but it's not that bad. With 4, the extra rage from mauls critting plus the swipe crits make rage tend to be fairly consistent. And anything above 4 mobs is essentially infinite rage time.The problem is, as before, that this will almost certainly pull at least one mob and usually multiple mobs, which really isn't ideal. It'll be more ideal in the future with the armor changes in the sense that you can survive a few hits more easily, but it's still never an ideal solution to have DPS classes pulling as expected.
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